US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers • Hacker News Board

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#371

Post by audunw » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:15 AM UTC

danjayh wrote: post #342

Justsignedup wrote: post #198

Wait. Let me get this straight. Touchscreens, which are ideal for representing multiple user unterfaces in an intuitive way, but requiring constant visual contact are being replaced by a physical user interface that can be used by both touch, and memory? Why was touchscreen ever even a consideration for controls you're not looking at? Touchscreen is great for phones. It is awful for keyboards (see macbook pro). And i…

And this is why I like Boeing's new manned capsule better than the one from SpaceX: Boeing: https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2018/08/boeing-starliner-cre... SpaceX: https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/atk7lokher... (I despise Gizmodo, so it's a deep link for this one)

You should keep in mind is that the SpaceX capsule is not really meant to be human operated under normal circumstances, and whatever actions are meant to be taken by humans during normal operation or emergencies supposedly have physical buttons.

So if there's things you can do with the touchscreens it's likely to be a whole lot of small things you might want to do in rare non-emergency situations. That's a pretty good fit for a touch screen. You can potentially give the astronauts a huge amount of control over all aspects of the spacecraft without creating a mountain of buttons and knobs. It could even lead to better safety since you know that every single physical control you see is important, and there's less room for mistake when using only the physical interface.

I'm not an expert in this area, so I could be wrong, but my impression is that SpaceX has a pretty good design here. Not necessary better or worse than Boeings approach. It's not like NASA would let astronauts fly on it if they thought it was unsafe or hard to operate.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#372

Post by ivanhoe » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:32 AM UTC

reificator wrote: post #214

ivanhoe wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On one project for automotive industry we had a huge problem with touchscreen interface because mechanics often have grease and dirt on their hands and the touch screens we used would get all confused with the residue left on the screen. We first tried to fix it in the software, but quickly realized it's much easier to switch to custom control board with specialized buttons and keyboard, just wrap them in plastic bag…

> Unexpectedly, it turned out to be faster for users too. I'm not anti-touchscreen by any measure, but did you really find that surprising? It seems common knowledge to me that keyboard shortcuts are faster than touchscreens for most tasks.

Well, not surprising, just unexpected as we haven't really been trying to optimize the process by that. This was industrial-like interface so there was no keyboard shortcuts in the usual sense, other than hitting Tab to move through the input fields (but that was supported with touchscreen too). The main speed up was because of higher tolerance for imprecision that mechanical system gives you. You can hit the button while doing something else, as you walk by, or use it wearing gloves, or even hit it with elbow without having to lay down the tools, which turned out to be a huge time saver in their specific use case. We've also added some extra big buttons next to the keyboard specially for the common tasks, to maximize on this effect.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#373

Post by alexis_read » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:53 AM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #295

sitkack wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, I have a whole sketch for this. Well the cat is out of the bag, we might as well complete this to prevent any patents. I envision using cam levered suction cups to hold on rotary and linear sliders that had touch screen sensitive rubber tips. One could go as far to 3d print arbitrary interaction devices that could get attached to the face of the touch screen. You can use the multitouch sensor w/o the screen bu…

Yep, any number of other controls besides knobs would work under the same basic principle. A linear slider control would be an obvious one, as would calculator-style membrane buttons. I'd be surprised if the concept weren't already patented, though, just because the idea of a generalized capacitive control surface seems fairly obvious, and the patent office doesn't really apply an "obviousness" test. What definitely…

These are great ideas! Tbh I think that much of the reason that these don't exist is the configurability of software UIs - these controls in Linux/ Windows/ OSX would need to be specifically programmed for by the programmer, rather than say in Squeak by the users. Breaking down that user/ programmer barrier is key I think.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#374

Post by saberdancer » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 7:59 AM UTC

o-__-o wrote: post #273

bonestamp2 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or fewer. The only time I ever see them on is when it's a clear night and I'm getting blinded by the person in front of me. That said, they are pretty useful for more than fog... They're good for flashing at people behind you who don't have their headlights on.

...a rear fog light is an additional parking light on the rear driver side of your car to help other cars identify the width of your car in foggy or other incline to weather situations. They are not brighter than any other light that would regularly be present on that car. If it is brighter and blinding as you say, rest assured the car has been illegally modified and is subject to constant harassment by police in all…

In the all cars I've owned, rear fog light is brighter than regular rear lights. Not sure if they are brighter than braking lights, but brighter than "position" lights for sure.

https://content.icarcdn.com/styles/article_cover/s3/field/ar... http://www.waycoolinc.com/graphics/z3/03/052503/jt/P5250326....

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#375

Post by killjoywashere » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 8:03 AM UTC

Justsignedup wrote: post #198

Wait. Let me get this straight. Touchscreens, which are ideal for representing multiple user unterfaces in an intuitive way, but requiring constant visual contact are being replaced by a physical user interface that can be used by both touch, and memory? Why was touchscreen ever even a consideration for controls you're not looking at? Touchscreen is great for phones. It is awful for keyboards (see macbook pro). And i…

in aircraft, yes. Ships? probably, but the US Navy Surface Warfare community has a special way of believing they are more special than reality.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#376

Post by Dextro » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 8:07 AM UTC

Fr0styMatt88 wrote: post #369

Justsignedup wrote: post #198

Wait. Let me get this straight. Touchscreens, which are ideal for representing multiple user unterfaces in an intuitive way, but requiring constant visual contact are being replaced by a physical user interface that can be used by both touch, and memory? Why was touchscreen ever even a consideration for controls you're not looking at? Touchscreen is great for phones. It is awful for keyboards (see macbook pro). And i…

There’s something even worse than touchscreens IMHO - those capacitive buttons on non-screen surfaces, like the capacitive power touch points on some monitor bezels. As a visually impaired person, these are absolutely maddening. I don’t know if anyone else gets this, but it’s almost like my brain doesn’t know how to press them. Touchscreens are fine for me, but for some reason I get major tension in my hands when try…

Agreed and they tend to get worse with age for cheaper models since the already low contrast symbol tends to fade away with time.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#377

Post by kokx » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 8:30 AM UTC

trilila wrote: post #368

Justsignedup wrote: post #198

Wait. Let me get this straight. Touchscreens, which are ideal for representing multiple user unterfaces in an intuitive way, but requiring constant visual contact are being replaced by a physical user interface that can be used by both touch, and memory? Why was touchscreen ever even a consideration for controls you're not looking at? Touchscreen is great for phones. It is awful for keyboards (see macbook pro). And i…

Fully touch capable keyboards would be awesome actually. Imagine remapping keys according to apps (games, editing, coding). I am not sure why you are using the macbook pro as a reference, as the only issues i had with it are related to the classic keyboard, not the touch.

If you mean that you have physical keys which you can remap, such as the Optimus Maximus keyboard concept [1], that would indeed be a great idea.

However, I would not be certain if I could type well on a full-touch screen keyboard such as the Optimus Tactus [2]. I do my typing blindly, having a touch screen would constantly require me to find the correct position for my fingers by look. While on a normal keyboard that is easy to do by touch.

[1]: https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/maximus/ [2]: https://www.artlebedev.com/optimus/tactus/

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#378

Post by skgoa » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 8:33 AM UTC

Fr0styMatt88 wrote: post #369

Justsignedup wrote: post #198

Wait. Let me get this straight. Touchscreens, which are ideal for representing multiple user unterfaces in an intuitive way, but requiring constant visual contact are being replaced by a physical user interface that can be used by both touch, and memory? Why was touchscreen ever even a consideration for controls you're not looking at? Touchscreen is great for phones. It is awful for keyboards (see macbook pro). And i…

There’s something even worse than touchscreens IMHO - those capacitive buttons on non-screen surfaces, like the capacitive power touch points on some monitor bezels. As a visually impaired person, these are absolutely maddening. I don’t know if anyone else gets this, but it’s almost like my brain doesn’t know how to press them. Touchscreens are fine for me, but for some reason I get major tension in my hands when try…

As a visually unimpaired person, those touch buttons are just horrible. Especially so when it is a function that does not have an immediate effect. Just this morning I switched my monitor on, off and on again, simply because by the time it actually reacted, I had pressed the power button again already.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#379

Post by skgoa » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 8:40 AM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #258

devnulloverflow wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Touchscreens, which are ideal for representing multiple user unterfaces I am no expert on this, but from talking to people in the aviation industry I noticed slow a trend away from the cockpit-with-2,000 controls and towards using computer screens which switch between display multiple things. Or rather, there still are 2,000 controls, but thanks to the computer-screens, the number hasn't blown up to 200,000. So my…

Configurable displays that you can quickly glance are great. OTOH controls that you normally, and especially in a critical situation, reach and operate without looking , is a different thing. They should be stationary, and provide good tactile feedback.

One important fact here is that everything the pilots will need to reach quickly in an emergency still is a physical button. It's just the more "nice to have" things (e.g. programming the cost factor of the engines, putting the route into the autopilot) that are done through the screens. Though, even those inputs are largely done with a funky kind of mouse+keyboard. Actual touchscreens are largely relegated to tertiary functions like airport information displays.

Re: US Navy will replace touchscreen with mechanical controls on its destroyers

#380

Post by yoz-y » Mon, Aug 12, 2019, 9:57 AM UTC

kokx wrote: post #377

trilila wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully touch capable keyboards would be awesome actually. Imagine remapping keys according to apps (games, editing, coding). I am not sure why you are using the macbook pro as a reference, as the only issues i had with it are related to the classic keyboard, not the touch.

If you mean that you have physical keys which you can remap, such as the Optimus Maximus keyboard concept [1], that would indeed be a great idea. However, I would not be certain if I could type well on a full-touch screen keyboard such as the Optimus Tactus [2]. I do my typing blindly, having a touch screen would constantly require me to find the correct position for my fingers by look. While on a normal keyboard tha…

I wonder how much would it be possible to touch-type on a touchscreen. I don't look at my phone keyboard anymore and type quite fast on it.