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Terminating Service for 8Chan

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Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#371

Post by snowwrestler »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #292
tyre wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This feels like a misunderstanding of the word freedom. Freedom in speech means that I can say what I want. It does _not_ mean that a hosting company has to host it or that a CDN has to optimize it or that a search company has to rank it or that an ad-network has to monetize it. Each of those players is free to do what they think is best with their time, resources, etc.; which often includes thinking of what "the pub…

When you use the tired, old "businesses can refuse to serve anybody they want" argument, understand that you are using the same arguments used in the past to refuse business to various races, creeds, orientations etc. that are now protected classes. That really ought to make you queasy and perhaps you should contemplate why. By the way, some states are now recognizing that political affiliation needs to be a protecte…

A black person cannot stop being black, nor is there any reason they should.

A person who believes black people should be killed or kicked out of the U.S. can always change their mind, and they should.

Advocating bigotry or violence is not a political affiliation nor is it a protected class.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#372

Post by the8472 »

ViViDboarder wrote: post #333
devmunchies wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>8chan is supporting these actions You don’t know anything about the chans if you think 8chan collectively supports shootings.

I don’t think they are referring to the people on it collectively. The site owners are implicitly supporting it by not moderating that type of content.

That seems like "if you're not with us you're against us" reasoning to me, it excludes the middle ground. Not banning something is not the same as endorsement.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#373

Post by internet_user »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #356
internet_user wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has it occurred to you that radicalization actually happens offline, perhaps even in childhood, due to some kind of real life events, and nothing to do with internet at all? All of this rooted in meatspace. The so called "social defeat". How often do you see successful people that have a fullfilling life go on rampages?

Radicalization tends to be a function of getting access to a group of like-minded people who agree with your angry/hostile/prejudiced views while simultaneously being socially cut off from moderating influences. The internet is able to connect isolated individuals with that group of like-minded people. One of the dangers of Internet access to such is people who only know you online may feel more comfortable with enco…

What makes such people seek out like-minded people, the "radicals"?

The roots are firmly in the meatspace.

The seed was planted well before he know what 8chan was.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#374

Post by ViViDboarder »

busymom0 wrote: post #189
King-Aaron wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yes, and ultimately noticeboardflare has the right to do whatever the hell they want. And if your noticeboard is inciting nearly weekly mass homicides, maybe the noticeboard you're trying to support is a shitty noticeboard.

> you're trying to support This isn't about "supporting" someone's views. This is about simply allowing one to speak. Otherwise Google should be held liable for every single illegal thing that happens on their platform (and there are ton of those).

I don’t think Cloudflare is trying to claim liability (that would be a bad move on their part), but just that they want no part of that kind of behavior. They don’t want to take money from or enable that kind of behavior in any way.

Why shouldn’t they have that choice?

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#375

Post by bloaf »

geofft wrote: post #317
internet_user wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has it occurred to you that radicalization actually happens offline, perhaps even in childhood, due to some kind of real life events, and nothing to do with internet at all? All of this rooted in meatspace. The so called "social defeat". How often do you see successful people that have a fullfilling life go on rampages?

Certainly the radicalization may happen offline. But in the cases at hand, it did not. There is a significant uptick in violence associated with online radicalization, and no corresponding uptick in violence associated with offline radicalization. You can say that the role of the internet is overblown, but the evidence is there. Besides, it's a sort of weird position to take on an a) online forum b) of tech people th…

There has been a significant uptick in everything online over the last 25 years because in that time the internet population has grown from 0.5% of the worlds population to over 55%.

Literature says that the internet does facilitate extremist communication/nucleation, but does not replace the meatspace as the primary radicalization agent. https://academic.oup.com/ia/article-abstract/93/5/1233/40982...

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#376

Post by mikedilger »

This is a very complex situation and a lot of factors need to be considered. Everyone seems keenly aware that 8chan was a place where hateful ideologies could fester and spread, and nobody wants that. But it seems few people are aware of the fact that cutting people off from society usually results in feelings of social rejection that drive people deeper into isolation, bitterness and hatred. Being socially rejected, or believing such, is fairly strongly coorelated with mass murderer psychology.[1][2] This action could actually have the opposite effect of what was intended.

There is also an effect similar to martyrdom where whenever some subgroup of society is mistreated they gain in power. Many see being cut-off as over-the-top and thus a mistreatment, irrespective of the fact that the group has a clearly evil ideology. There is a risk this action will embolden their cause, as a natural instinct to protect the mistreated and come to the defense of the underdog kicks in. Read some of the other comments and you'll see what I mean. This comment itself is admittedly partially motivated by my instinct to come to the defense of the mistreated (granted the obviousness that the murdered and their families are clearly the most mistreated).

Like I said, this is complicated. The simple ideological answers are simply not good enough.

So the hard question is this: how do you prevent the spread of their ideology without excising them from (online) society? I believe it is possible, but it is going to take a more nuanced approach going forward. We could start by not labelling people as racists or white supremacists. We should reserve these labels for actions, words and ideologies, not people. Attack the ideas, not the people. Deplatform (censor) the posts (if you control the platform), don't ban the accounts. Throttle accounts of repeat abusers as necessary. And always be willing to talk.

BTW I always feel queasy posting things like this to HN because I know some people will utterly reject me and downvote me, but I feel this point is just too important.

[1] Katherine Newman, https://www.livescience.com/21787-predicting-mass-shootings.... [2] James Knoll, https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201405...

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#377

Post by cthulha »

xfitm3 wrote: post #304
baddox wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the concern about the gradual radicalization that occurs in these online communities, and not about specific posts that threaten violence or announce impending mass shootings?

Isn't banning/silencing communities like these the real radicalization?

You have an implicit model of how radicalization works which is out of sync with the model others are applying.

The counterexample is that, when racist/fascist/white supremacist content became easier to access through online unmoderated forums such as 4chan, the level of online & offline activity and recruitment became higher.

Secondly, it's hardly news to these communities that they are disliked by others. Have you met an Edgelord?

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#378

Post by Alex3917 »

snowwrestler wrote: post #352
rand_r wrote: post #263

The best argument I’ve heard for being a free speech absolutist is that speech is the highest form of thought in Humans. We think via dialogue. We arrive at the truth via dialogue. Criminalizing free speech limits our ability to think and arrive at the truth, and that can’t be good for anyone long term. I haven’t heard of a good rebuttal to the above reasoning.

Free speech shouldn’t be criminalized. But, neither does anyone have a right to an audience. And that’s what this is really about. Cloudflare is not depriving 8chan of their freedom of speech; they are just declining to assist 8chan in finding an audience. I also disagree that speech is the highest form of thought in humans, but that is a sort of a side topic.

> But, neither does anyone have a right to an audience.

Free speech includes the right to be heard.

That's why the government is allowed to kick you out of political rallies/meetings if you're just there to protest or whatever; you're not allowed to try to shout over someone else to prevent them from talking, rather if you disagree with them then you need to go find your own followers to try to convince.

edit: To all the people downvoting me, do you not realize I'm literally just paraphrasing the relevant supreme court ruling?: https://www.thefire.org/say-it-again-for-the-people-in-the-b...

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#379

Post by word-reader »

geofft wrote: post #334
word-reader wrote: post #199

This post repeatedly refers to 8chan as "lawless" and "unmoderated" but it is neither. As a whole, it is a public website subject to US law, complete with DMCA and search warrant contact forms. The sitewide rule is that all content must comply with US law. The media also keeps saying 8chan, 8chan, 8chan over and over, when it is really just the one most popular board ("pol") that is being discussed. But there are hun…

> Cloudflare would have been in a better position to actually change 8chan if they had kept them on and pressured them. So, this was Cloudflare's position as of earlier today: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/aug/04/mass-shoo... > "It would be the easiest thing in the world and it would feel incredibly good for us to kick 8chan off our network, but I think it would step away from the obligation that we hav…

I would say that Matthew Prince and associates just wanted to feel better about themselves, avoid further bad PR, and not have things be awkward around town.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#380

Post by internet_user »

chx wrote: post #332
rand_r wrote: post #263

The best argument I’ve heard for being a free speech absolutist is that speech is the highest form of thought in Humans. We think via dialogue. We arrive at the truth via dialogue. Criminalizing free speech limits our ability to think and arrive at the truth, and that can’t be good for anyone long term. I haven’t heard of a good rebuttal to the above reasoning.

Limiting who and how can experiment with anthrax doesn't seem like a limitation on science -- it looks sanity to me. Since ideas are just as viral and as deadly there is nothing inherently wrong with limiting the spread of some.

Give it a bit more time, and anyone with two brain cells will be able to experiment with anthrax in their garage.

What then?

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