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How is it like to be a dev in Iran

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Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran

#371

Post by yyyk »

mpoloton wrote: post #353
simonh wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends what you mean by surrender of Iran. Iran is the one with an explicitly stated foreign policy goal of annihilating another state. They are also persistently taking active steps intended to achieve it. That inevitably creates conflict, and in armed conflicts nobody ends up looking good.

What they mean by negotiation is sever limit on Iran missile program. They ask Iran to limit its missile range very considerably. At first you may say missile is not defensive but offensive. But the fact is that Iran has no air force or any other serious military hardware to defend itself. Because simply they wouldn't sell them to Iran. Most Persian gulf countries have military budget per capita orders of magnitude l…

Iran has troops in at least three countries thousands of km of its border, its on the offence. Besides, it's not like these missiles could do more than tickle the American army. Their only use is to menace the other countries of the region, except no country in the region is even capable of invading Iran. In short, their purpose is offensive.

Now, 'Moderate' President Rafsanjani argued that "the use of a nuclear bomb in Israel will leave nothing on the ground, whereas it will only damage the world of Islam". It's best we do not allow such an apocalyptic scenario - such a war could hardly be contained to the Middle East.

Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran

#372

Post by [deleted] »

mpoloton wrote: post #341
keiferski wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to your question is in the text you quoted: intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror. Economic sanctions may be justified or unjustified, moral or immoral, but they are distinctly different from indiscriminate violence. Muddying the definitions of words really doesn't help anyone and indeed makes the discussion harder to have, as communication is only possible if both/all participa…

I didn't say it is "Terrorism" I said "Economic Terrorism". Economic sanctions by definition are indiscriminate. Now there is a shortage of some cancer and MS medication in Iran and people are dying because of it. Even though the medications are not sanctioned, the financial transactions are sanctioned and these medications cannot be purchased easily. How isn't this violence? According to the UN, sanctions on food an…

[deleted]

Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran

#373

Post by simonh »

mpoloton wrote: post #353
simonh wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends what you mean by surrender of Iran. Iran is the one with an explicitly stated foreign policy goal of annihilating another state. They are also persistently taking active steps intended to achieve it. That inevitably creates conflict, and in armed conflicts nobody ends up looking good.

What they mean by negotiation is sever limit on Iran missile program. They ask Iran to limit its missile range very considerably. At first you may say missile is not defensive but offensive. But the fact is that Iran has no air force or any other serious military hardware to defend itself. Because simply they wouldn't sell them to Iran. Most Persian gulf countries have military budget per capita orders of magnitude l…

If Iran stopped funding active offensive organisations like Hezbollah there would be no reason to restrict their weapons purchases or impose sanctions. The sanctions aren't the root cause, they are responses to specific stated goals and actions of Iran. Goals of destroying specific foreign states, which it insists on pursuing through violent means. No nation has a specific stated goal of destroying Iran, nor are they acting in order to achieve it.

>About annihilating another state: How can Iran annihilate a state which has 200 nuclear warheads? It might be other way around.

If the US or Israel really wanted to destroy Iran they could. The US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, in both cases in response to hideously brutal attacks on themselves or their allies. They could do it to Iran, so why haven't they? Because they don't want to, they have nothing to gain from it. They didn't want to invade Iraq or Afghanistan either, and have been trying to get their troop out as fast as possible ever since. The only reason they attacked Saddam or Afghanistan was because of the invasion of Kuwait and the 9/11 attacks. If Iran would just leave them and their allies alone, they'd be fine just buying their oil and selling them Coca-Cola.

Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran

#374

Post by cm2187 »

kweks wrote: post #360
cm2187 wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not mentioning islamism once in your post....

Check out the last sentence. In the context of Persian culture, Islam was forcefully introduced in the 650's. Iranian culture dates to 4500BC. From my experience (been through Iran 5 times..) - Islam seems to play a very minor / non-existant role in the majority of people's lives. Naturally there's variation on this (Tehran vs. Qu'om / Mashaad) - but at least that was my experience from living and speaking.

You suggest that what defines the current regime is a reaction to the West. I think this is completly missing the point. Islamism has been on the rise in every single muslim country since the 60s, and the current regime is before anything an islamist regime.

I am not sure what the fact that Iran is a thousand year civilisation has anything to do with it. China is a thousand year civilisation too, it didn't become less communist nevertheless.

Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran

#375

Post by yyyk »

tsimionescu wrote: post #212
throwaway-klsdj wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I can consider this in more familiar terms, as if both sides have guns. Do they use them differently? I at least can't know for sure. What it boils down to for me is which side do you want to win? Being fair and impartial doesn't mean considering that both of the nations are the same and the outcome will be the same if either side wins, with only a different name and flag for the victor. If the US wins, a rough…

> What it boils down to for me is which side do you want to win? Being fair and impartial doesn't mean considering that both of the nations are the same and the outcome will be the same if either side wins, with only a different name and flag for the victor. Your argument makes sense, but it starts with a very flawed assumption: that Iran wants to dominate the world. The reality accepted by everyone except the US and…

Iran is already part of an agreement (called the NPT) to not have any nukes ever, and has already violated it. It has no justification to ask for any concession from any other country for it to honour its original signature, much less from countries they have sworn to annihilate. It sounds like they want others to disarm their intended victim for them.

Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran

#376

Post by mpoloton »

yyyk wrote: post #371
mpoloton wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What they mean by negotiation is sever limit on Iran missile program. They ask Iran to limit its missile range very considerably. At first you may say missile is not defensive but offensive. But the fact is that Iran has no air force or any other serious military hardware to defend itself. Because simply they wouldn't sell them to Iran. Most Persian gulf countries have military budget per capita orders of magnitude l…

Iran has troops in at least three countries thousands of km of its border, its on the offence. Besides, it's not like these missiles could do more than tickle the American army. Their only use is to menace the other countries of the region, except no country in the region is even capable of invading Iran. In short, their purpose is offensive. Now, 'Moderate' President Rafsanjani argued that "the use of a nuclear bomb…

I feel this is becoming a geopolitical conversation. I can go on and on, so do you. I don't want to hijack the main discussion of the thread any longer which was the human aspect of the sanctions to a geo-strategical game.

Thanks for a civilized conversation anyways.

Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran

#377

Post by gnode »

TenaciousValor wrote: post #164
pizza wrote: post #43

Effects of sanctions totally slide off the elite and shit all over the poorest members of a society.

And war doesn't?

War has often resulted in regime change or occupation, sometime even execution of defeated leadership, so no; war often affects the elite (in the end).

Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran

#378

Post by miracle2k »

flyinglizard wrote: post #272
vms20591 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are supporting and funding the Houthis in Yemen who are responsible for the civil war and attacks on Saudi Arabia and Gulf states. They are supporting, funding and arming Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Gaza, both of which are recognized terrorist groups intent on murdering Jews. Saudi does the same, by arming the opposite side. > Finally, Iran hangs gays from cranes. There are right wing fanatics in the "West" who…

"There are right wing fanatics in the "West" who openly are against LGBTQ, trolling them IRL and on social media. Some, calling for violence as well. Pushing those people to depression or cornering them in society, is as worse as hanging them ." Go find yourself some Iranian expat friends and ask them what it's really like to live under the rule of Mullahs, then come back and check if your moral relativism has taken…

Parent made the wrong argument.

First, the Iranian state does not have a policy of finding and murdering gay people. You'll note that basically all press reports of the execution of homosexuals ultimately refer to acts of rape, possibly statutory. The argument, roughly, would be that this is a pretense, and certainly, Iran's legal system is very flawed, its laws regressive and offenses such as "enmity against god" ill-defined. Nevertheless, they are not ISIS, and merely being homosexual is not a crime.

Second, if you want to morally justify sanctions based on the idea of improving LGBT rights in Iran, find at minimum some evidence that there is significant percentage of those people in Iran who would welcome them.

Third, Saudi Arabia (see [0]). The west simply has no, absolutely no leg to stand on when it comes to the human rights argument. It is blatantly obvious that Iran could continue as it does with regard to its treatments of minorities, so long as it stops opposing our geopolitical interests, and starts to provide some benefits instead.

To summarize, this is not an issue of moral relativism. This is an issue of dishonesty and jingoism.

[0] https://www.out.com/news/2019/4/29/saudi-arabia-kills-5-afte...

Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran

#379

Post by fit2rule »

flyinglizard wrote: post #296
jakobegger wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you are not sanctioning only the military and the government, you are sanctioning everyone in the country. You are sanctioning young people, who just want to live their lives, just like we do. They already suffer from the oppressive regime, and you just want to make their live even harder. All the Iranians I've met seem like completely normal people. I've never been to Iran, but from what I hear the young peo…

At what point should we start to hold ordinary civilians responsible to the actions of their governments?

Always. The people always get the politics they deserve.

Re: How is it like to be a dev in Iran

#380

Post by ggggtez »

mpoloton wrote: post #332

Definition of terrorism according to Wikipedia: "Terrorism is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a religious or political aim." How economic sanctions and maximum pressure different from terrorism? Putting a lot of pressure and pain on ordinary people to achieve political goal, which in this case is surrender…

Pure nonsense. Terror is not the same thing as economic sanctions. To suggest it's the same is to make language meaningless.
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