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Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

glenmccallum.com

371–380 of 384 posts

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#371

I take a completely different approach to hiring, and I've gotten fantastic results. Instead of throwing tricky algorithm questions at a candidates, I scour their detailed employment records for the most relevant experience for the first project. In other words, I'm looking for relevant experience rather than top-of-the-head algorithmic brilliance. In the interview, I pose our project problem, and the candidate who g…

Here's the problem with doing this in the US: if you're out of a job, you're out of health insurance. If your whole family is on your health insurance plan, you'll never accept a project-based gig that might not become full time. So with this approach, you're filtering out a new and different subset of the applicant pool before they even interview.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#372
post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does seem incredible, but it happens. One place I worked at, the company hired a developer who claimed to have a CompSci masters. He was completely unable to code anything. I thought it strange. I started to ask him some basic questions that any actual CompSci degree holder should be able to answer (and I don't have a degree in CompSci at all - everything I know I've learned on my own, from other sources, for the…

shit, I'd have to look up NAND gates. also: that's EE, not CS.

There's actually two acceptable answers for the question...

I should note that my statements below may be FOC; I do not myself have a CS or EE degree, so take what I say with a modicum of salt...

But first, note that I wrote "function", not "circuit".

It could be argued that CS, on the whole, is a subset of mathematics, particularly that of boolean algebra and logic. As such, the functional equivalency between the abstract of boolean logic/algebra, and its implementation on a physical substrate, could be considered among the most important of CS concepts.

One could also argue (maybe?) that Turing's "equivalency theorem" might be related to such as well. Consider the case of an emulation of hardware done in software; one could consider that - at a base level, it is boolean logic expressed physically, being expressed equivalently as boolean software functions.

The opposite it also true, of course - that it is possible to express software boolean functionality in the equivalent physical form.

What form it physically takes does not matter (other than speed of course), which is why I also didn't ask for an implementation/representation in electrical terms or schematic form, but rather a diagram of something that could be expressed as a physical and mechanical object. If the person were so inclined, they could express it as a series of levers and marbles, or in LEGO, or Meccano, or any other similar option.

EE knowledge is not needed here, I don't believe (Martin Gardner might agree).

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#373
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> include whitespace and brainfuck make part of the test a reverse question where the interviewers have to work out what language your solution is in 1:v!`*5*54p2*62*77,*5 v >v>:# 1+:2^ >:3%|>:5%|> 1#^_^ v"z" v>v2,"-z2 "",8**,B5"* iF,622#"::4 "",,3*^ ^>^>^>,8#^6#*

I'll be using this one (or similar). Thank you

  ^_^

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#374
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

shit, I'd have to look up NAND gates. also: that's EE, not CS.

There's actually two acceptable answers for the question... I should note that my statements below may be FOC; I do not myself have a CS or EE degree, so take what I say with a modicum of salt... But first, note that I wrote "function", not "circuit". It could be argued that CS, on the whole, is a subset of mathematics, particularly that of boolean algebra and logic. As such, the functional equivalency between the ab…

> One could also argue (maybe?) that Turing's "equivalency theorem"

lol wat

did you talk like this to the CS masters, no wonder they left

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

‘Culture fit’ (without clearly specifying what that means) is such an enormous backdoor for all manner of bias and personal prejudice I’m surprised the concept is even legal.

I've seen "culture fit" used in an attempt to reject female candidates because the interviewer didn't want to stop telling dick jokes around the office. Fortunately, the management chain caught this and ... corrected the issue.

My wife had a great interview, everything was going well and they were showing her around the office. When she got to the team that was hiring, the hiring manager indicated that they like to shoot Nerf guns at each other, and they hope that is OK.

My wife showed a sign of mild disapproval, and that was it. She was rejected for "not a culture fit".

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#376
It was inevitable, that eventually we would end up with an oversupply of Software engineers. I think we're now getting to that point. No one likes getting rejected, but, when you have too many applicants and not enough jobs, rejections are going to happen more frequently regardless of what interview process you use.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#377
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can offer a coding test - give them a computer, a piece of paper, etc. Let them sit a room by themselves, give them up to an hour to do a 15 minute problem. There are lots of ways to destress the coding interview, but the ability to code has to be tested.

What if the job doesn't really involve coding? That's true of rather a lot of senior/lead level software engineering jobs. Security analysts, devops engineers, architects, and others may never write code at all as part of their jobs. As a senior devops engineer, I write a lot of trivial Groovy code for Jenkins pipelines. But the interesting part isn't the code, which for the most part a monkey could do. It's redesign…

I think the most valuable engineering leader would be someone who can remove code, or at least prevent unnecessary code from being written and maintained.

Code is a liability as much as it is an asset.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#378
post #9

We need to admit that the interview process isn't about determining the relative qualifications of the applications in the pool, because we all know that 3 hours and whiteboard can't tell anything you need to know about whether or not that person will perform over the years. We need to acknowledge that we perform this pantomime in order to satisfy layers of management that are unable to accept that you can't hire for…

Absolutely untrue. Whiteboard problems absolutely do work. The vast majority of applicants cannot code at all. And I mean that literally: they're at a loss at how to write a function that adds two numbers or counts the number of elements in a list. Worse is that these guys can be employed as developers (even 'senior' ones!) for years and years in 'serious' enterprises. How, you ask? By using copy-paste and cleverly n…

The vast majority of applicants cannot code at all. And I mean that literally.

No, you mean that hyperbolically.

Not only does it simply not happen that "the vast majority of applications cannot code at all" -- this literally has never happened at all, in my experience.

What does happen is that you get a range of people on a spectrum. And yeah, a fair number of them can't code very well. They're slow, they don't see smart solutions, whatever - or are just plain sloppy. But that's quite different from "not being able to code at all."

As to those people who (supposedly) can't "write a function that adds two numbers or counts the number of elements in a list" -- most likely they're simply freezing up from the anxiety of being whiteboarded by a perfect stranger for the first time in a great while - or perhaps ever. (In fact that's exactly what happened to me, on my very first on-site interview after college).

Or that is to say: they haven't internalized -- and produced defenses for -- the (intentionally) awkward and humiliating ritual of the modern tech interview process.

And again, you should only be actually seeing these people once in a blue moon. Unless the people running your incoming "pipeline" are utterly incompetent, and are constantly feeding you a stream of unqualified candidates. In which case your companies much bigger problem a lack of engineers who are able to "ace" HackerRank problems in 59 minutes or less.[1]

[1] Which, lest be honest now -- basically can only happen after extensive time spent on practicing these problems in advance. Or that is, by blatantly gaming your hiring "filter".

And one more thing:

How, you ask? By ... dodging responsibility.

No - their jobs just have different metrics for "responsibility" than yours. That's just the way many businesses are run, whether you like it or not.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. So you base your hire decisions on pop quiz answers? Have you worked in the industry for longer than 2 years? > ask what the sleep command is in JavaScript. > We don't really use arrays in Scala These all seem like genuine things. In more complex companies, people may use more exotic data structures and/or have abstractions around data access. Silly comment overall.

None of the examples were trivia. These were examples of what the candidates got stuck on in a larger interview question, with the ability to use Google to look things up. I don't care what kind of abstractions you have at your current company. We don't (/didn't) have those abstractions. If you can't show me that you can do CS101 basics (appending to an array?) in the language that you claim to write day to day, how…

> CS101 basics (appending to an array?)

Probably because most professionals are not fresh out of CS101 & most data structures aren't arrays or exposed as arrays.

List, Collections, Map, Trees, home-rolled data structures better suited to domain - how do you not get this?

Your opinion sounds like that of someone just out of a bootcamp. You're putting all the weight on irrelevant syntax issues. A lot of devs use multiple languages day to day amongst other things.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a lot of senior devs who think they are a false negative who are not. I speak from personal experience. I failed my first FAANG style interview both because I had not prepared nor understood how white board interviews really work and because a huge subset of my skill had gotten rusty over the years. But when I first failed I was really upset and very quickly wrote off the entire process as a ridiculous t…

I don't think any good senior devs are under the illusion (privately) that they're rusty at whiteboard interviews. I'm certain my college grad self fresh out of practicing for the ACM contests could have run circles around my recent job search self when it comes to algorithm stuff. I had to practice and then pass a ton of whiteboard rounds to get my current senior developer job, so I'm not saying this out of bitterne…

My philosophy when hiring now is to be trying to answer the question of “how much responsibility could I give this candidate and feel confident they could flourish”. A junior engineer should be able to be given a clear spec and be able to implement it. A mid should be able to do the same thing with a poorly specified spec, in a domain they don’t necessarily have experience in. They should know how to learn. A good senior should be able to support a team to figure out what needs to be done, and move heaven and earth to get there. They should be able to fix (and anticipate) any and all problems that show up. Train people. And push back when they’re assigned a problem that doesn’t make sense, or given unreasonable deadlines. A good senior can be responsible for making sure a whole team delivers a working product.

From this perspective, a technical whiteboard interview is one of many tools. Interviews I give usually start with “so your boss asks you to solve problem X ... where do you start?”. Then I throw more and more problems at them (technical, organisational, etc) and see how they respond. “It’s in production and people start complaining that it’s slow. Where do you look first?”. “What problems do you foresee with this design down the line?”. “If you had $1m/yr budget to hire a team to scale this system, what would your ideal team look like? How would you spend the money?”. “An inexperienced team implements this and it’s buggy. What mistakes are you worried they might have made?”

Ultimately we get the traits we hire for. Being able to code (and debug!) is important. But I also want employees who I can delegate to, and trust that they’ll figure things out. I’ve been able to pass whiteboard interviews since second year uni. But I have not stopped learning, and the non technical skills I’ve gained since then are at least as important. Test for them.

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