Online activists are silencing us, scientists say • Hacker News Board

Re: Online activists are silencing us, scientists say

#371

Post by yyyyip » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 9:47 PM UTC

Emma_Goldman wrote: post #369

yyyyip wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so if "race" only affects external appearance, explain why every single london marathon champion since 2002 is kenyan or ethiopian?

There's no consensus as to the answer to that question. But even if we accept the genetic accounts offered, the explanation would be that certain Ethiopian and Kenyan tribes living in mountainous areas have adapted to living at high altitudes by adapting to increase the efficiency of their oxygen uptake, which, in turn, makes them better long-distance runners. That has nothing to do with melanin, or even with being K…

So you say that tribes can physiologically adapt depending on their environment.

Do you then admit that tribes can adapt cognitively depending on their environment? Or does adaptation only occur below the neck?

Re: Online activists are silencing us, scientists say

#372

Post by btilly » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 9:50 PM UTC

logifail wrote: post #356

btilly wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be most of the effect on the group taking the placebo. But it is not the placebo effect. Were there no placebo effect, then we could test the effectiveness of drugs by simply observing one group and giving the other our proposed treatment.

There are drug candidates that make it all the way to phase 3 trials before they fail. One of the (surprisingly?) common reasons for failure at this stage is turning out to be less effective than placebo https://www.nuventra.com/resources/blog/placebo-response-pha... https://seekingalpha.com/article/256697-why-phase-3-trials-f...

Reading the articles left me with the impression not that they were less effective, but that they couldn't prove efficacy. So they could win, or lose, but it was close.

It is also worth noting that one of the reasons why this happens in stage 3 despite having passed through a test in stage 2 that was meant to whittle this out is that improved expectations increase the strength of the placebo effect. Which makes the real effect harder to detect.

Re: Online activists are silencing us, scientists say

#373

Post by dgudkov » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 9:54 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #43

mc32 wrote: post #5

This is sad. Unfortunately we have some people who put their beliefs and politics above science and will actively act against investigation only because a line of inquiry could result in evidence against their view. It comes from both the left and right depending on the topic. It’s not simply dissent it also is about pressuring institutions to not fund certain areas of investigation which is a very detrimental conseq…

Unfortunately we have some people who put their beliefs and politics above science and will actively act against investigation only because a line of inquiry could result in evidence against their view. You say that's people putting beliefs and politics above science, but while that's a rational thing to suggest there are two problems with it. Firstly, a lot of issues don't and can't have any scientific rationale beh…

>They're moral judgements.

The problem with moral judgements is that moral is not absolute. It always changes. That's why it's absurd to judge events happened 100 years ago by the current moral norms. In another 100 years there will be very different moral norms by which many of the things we're doing now will be considered absolutely amoral.

Re: Online activists are silencing us, scientists say

#374

Post by leftyted » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:02 PM UTC

Emma_Goldman wrote: post #370

leftyted wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment doesn't make sense to me. Like all words, "race" has different meanings, i.e. it can be defined in different ways. Race can, and has, been defined in a way that is useful to scientists. "Biological races" are different populations of the same species that meet some threshold of genetic variability with respect to each other. When populations are isolated for a long time, this is inevitable.

'"Biological races" are different populations of the same species that meet some threshold of genetic variability with respect to each other. When populations are isolated for a long time, this is inevitable.' As you must know, the ordinary understanding of race is based upon external appearance, primarily melanin: black, white, yellow, brown, Indian, and so on. If you redefine race as a genetic population, then you…

> As you must know, the ordinary understanding of race is based upon external appearance, primarily melanin: black, white, yellow, brown, Indian, and so on.

This is exactly my point. Race means different things in different contexts. Colloquially, the word is used as you used it here. But it has other definitions, like the one I posted. All words are like this.

> If you redefine race as a genetic population, then you will end up with new population categories that have absolutely nothing to do with race as it is ordinarily understood

I'm not redefining it. It has been defined this way by other people. There are real scientists who use the word race like this.

But I agree: different definitions of the word "race" will result in different race categories. When a scientist uses the term "race" they mean something different than someone using the word race colloquially.

Re: Online activists are silencing us, scientists say

#375

Post by tynpeddler » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:10 PM UTC

yyyyip wrote: post #364

Emma_Goldman wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural selection acts to increase the fitness of a species relative to its environment. In the human case 'race' is a misnomer. It simply refers to certain features of humans' external appearance, namely melanin. But this does not track any distinct genetic community, which primarily changes as a function of the total sum of environmental pressures, and not just in proportion to UV radiation (i.e. as is true of mela…

Ok, so if "race" only affects external appearance, explain why every single london marathon champion since 2002 is kenyan or ethiopian?

What race are the kenyans and ethopians?

Re: Online activists are silencing us, scientists say

#376

Post by Emma_Goldman » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:35 PM UTC

leftyted wrote: post #374

Emma_Goldman wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'"Biological races" are different populations of the same species that meet some threshold of genetic variability with respect to each other. When populations are isolated for a long time, this is inevitable.' As you must know, the ordinary understanding of race is based upon external appearance, primarily melanin: black, white, yellow, brown, Indian, and so on. If you redefine race as a genetic population, then you…

> As you must know, the ordinary understanding of race is based upon external appearance, primarily melanin: black, white, yellow, brown, Indian, and so on. This is exactly my point. Race means different things in different contexts. Colloquially, the word is used as you used it here. But it has other definitions, like the one I posted. All words are like this. > If you redefine race as a genetic population, then you…

'This is exactly my point. Race means different things in different contexts. Colloquially, the word is used as you used it here. But it has other definitions, like the one I posted. All words are like this.'

You are being obtuse. There are not 'different' definitions of race. There is an overwhelming homogeneity in the dominant definitions of race, i.e. according to melanin. Race, on these terms, has been a major structuring force in modern social relations. If you invent a new definition of race and use it to justify what, with the normal definition of race, is racism, then you are either seriously confused and/or politically malicious.

Re: Online activists are silencing us, scientists say

#377

Post by tomlock » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:42 PM UTC

freeflight wrote: post #218

vgoh1 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a child, I would suffer from terrible muscle contractions in my calves. I would get a charlie horse in the middle of the night, and it would not go away completely for over a day. I couldn't put my foot flat to walk properly, and it was very painful. After about a dozen of these attacks, I noticed a pattern - they would occur on the night before something that I was dreading - a test I wasn't prepared for,…

Wow, that's like the exact opposite to my nighty calf cramps. I tend to get them when I'm way too relaxed as that makes me "stretch out" during sleep, which I kinda notice in half-sleep as feeling great, until I seemingly "overstretch" and get fully woken up to a painful calf cramp. Tho that whole problem kinda fixed itself once I started taking Magnesium supplements before going to bed, to help with teeth gnashing/n…

Anecdata +1 but taking magnesium every now and then has done wonders for my leg cramp issues.

Re: Online activists are silencing us, scientists say

#378

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:56 PM UTC

freeflight wrote: post #218

vgoh1 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a child, I would suffer from terrible muscle contractions in my calves. I would get a charlie horse in the middle of the night, and it would not go away completely for over a day. I couldn't put my foot flat to walk properly, and it was very painful. After about a dozen of these attacks, I noticed a pattern - they would occur on the night before something that I was dreading - a test I wasn't prepared for,…

Wow, that's like the exact opposite to my nighty calf cramps. I tend to get them when I'm way too relaxed as that makes me "stretch out" during sleep, which I kinda notice in half-sleep as feeling great, until I seemingly "overstretch" and get fully woken up to a painful calf cramp. Tho that whole problem kinda fixed itself once I started taking Magnesium supplements before going to bed, to help with teeth gnashing/n…

[deleted]

Re: Online activists are silencing us, scientists say

#379

Post by jeffwass » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 10:57 PM UTC

tomlock wrote: post #377

freeflight wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, that's like the exact opposite to my nighty calf cramps. I tend to get them when I'm way too relaxed as that makes me "stretch out" during sleep, which I kinda notice in half-sleep as feeling great, until I seemingly "overstretch" and get fully woken up to a painful calf cramp. Tho that whole problem kinda fixed itself once I started taking Magnesium supplements before going to bed, to help with teeth gnashing/n…

Anecdata +1 but taking magnesium every now and then has done wonders for my leg cramp issues.

Did you take the magnesium also just before bed or morning?

Re: Online activists are silencing us, scientists say

#380

Post by Emma_Goldman » Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 11:04 PM UTC

yyyyip wrote: post #371

Emma_Goldman wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no consensus as to the answer to that question. But even if we accept the genetic accounts offered, the explanation would be that certain Ethiopian and Kenyan tribes living in mountainous areas have adapted to living at high altitudes by adapting to increase the efficiency of their oxygen uptake, which, in turn, makes them better long-distance runners. That has nothing to do with melanin, or even with being K…

So you say that tribes can physiologically adapt depending on their environment. Do you then admit that tribes can adapt cognitively depending on their environment? Or does adaptation only occur below the neck?

In principle genetic populations can adapt to their environment physiologically and cognitively. That follows trivially from natural selection. It is an empirical question if and how that occurs in human groups. I heavily caveated my last reply be because the genetic explanation for Ethiopian and Kenyan running ability is one among many, and entirely unproven. You would have, to validate your thesis, to build up a theoretical case as to why environmental pressures have led to some particular cognitive adaptation, and then to empirically test it. You know as well as I that there is no credible existing such account.