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Lies We Tell Kids

paulgraham.com

371–380 of 433 posts

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#371
I pretty much raised my son according to these principles--you met Zak at the Stanford Y-combinator start-up seminar--and he is still the one I go to for rational discussion on almost any topic. He is able to take himself out of the equation and think about the problem at hand--even recognizing and ignoring his biases. Thanks for promoting rational thinking.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#372
This is a fascinating and dangerous account of systematic errors in how we raise children. Lies are damaging because they make truth harder to find -- the opposite of a lie is almost never the truth. But, once revealed as lies (a key problem), they are highly informative about the state of mind of the liar.

What the essay suggests in various ways in describing how we lie to children is that we are afraid of conflict. The world is full of conflict and violence though we wish it were not. But we can wish it away for our children for a short while.

Which leads, I think, to the underlying reason for Paul's discomfort with these lies. The way to resolve conflict is to engage with it in a highly choreographed way. There aren't many, but there are some ways that society has devised for dealing with conflict in non-violent ways. The constitution of the U.S. of A. is an example. Litigation and contract law are others.

Unreflective lying is thus counter-productive to a long-term goal of raising children that have the right combination of courage and humility that is necessary to repeatedly engage in conflict without resorting to violence.

A few other thoughts on specific passages:

"Very smart adults often seem unusually innocent, and I don't think this is a coincidence. I think they've deliberately avoided learning about certain things."

The thing that "very smart adults" have in common may not be selective ignorance, but rather strong skepticism. They haven't "learned" because they remain skeptical long after the rest of the world is satisfied with the lies they've been told.

"You can't distinguish your group by doing things that are rational, and believing things that are true."

The way I understand what you're getting at here is through the distinction between a public good and a natural monopoly. Some people naively assume that all public goods have the natural monopoly characteristic of declining average total costs of production. This is not true. Natural monopolies occupy a middle point in the temporal-spatial spectrum. At the low end, we have black markets that operate in small geographical regions for short periods of time until legal firms can enter. A black market may have a natural monopoly, but it is not a public good. At the other end of the spectrum, we have religion and political ideology, which are neither non-rivalrous nor non-excludable, and yet may have natural monopoly characteristics in how their doctrine are established and disseminated. The bizarre payload can be explained by the leverage these natural monopolies have over their followers. Incidentally, I am a Christian, and believe that learning and practicing Christian doctrine would be of benefit to everybody. But I am acutely aware of the bizarre payload that the church as an institution has accrued over many years. That bizarre payload is a problem for people like me to try and fix, not a reason not to adopt and practice Christianity.

In the end, I connected with this essay because I find the author engaged in what I consider to be one of the more difficult and important human endeavors: becoming free. Freedom cannot be had by force. It grows up in the detritus of shattered false beliefs about self and others. Its growth is fostered by the sun of social acknowledgment, but can wither under the same sun when not also watered down and washed off by humble listening and a habit of self-criticism.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#373
Exposing children to too much within a short time - which tends to happen in their teenage years as they become more mature - does overwhelm children. They may not have the mental tools and the feeling of not being able to comprehend or cope may give rise to negative emotions - guilt and insecurity. In the pre-teens and early teems, how information is presented to the child depends on the parents. The influence of the school, peer pressure, etc starts taking over pretty soon. While keeping the children away from everything in a sterile environment is not correct, there is nothing wrong in choosing the right time and place to help them learn. Finding out their reactions to various things, and explaining there could be many ways to approach something of which some ways are better than others, etc. takes time, effort and patience. As an involved, committed and hopefully intelligent parent, there are times when I have to resort to saying "Oh, thats a bigge thing - you will learn it soon!". To me that is not a lie - that is like saying first learn your A, B, C. then you can read that very colorful picture book and enjoy it.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#374
I constantly lie to my children. 99% of the time its told with a wink, but I have been (unconsciously perhaps) testing there ability to tell whether or not I am joking or not.

My wife frequently jokes that "I have lost all credibility" with the children. I think this may be a good thing. I want my kids to be always straining to differentiate what is true from what is false, and to develop a good skeptical ear.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#375
I am absolutely positive that you have no children of your own, nor have you ever been around them. Normally I fight diligently against identity politics of that kind (positing that you cannot understand a position without first holding it), but with this article, you have made me rethink my general opposition to censorship.

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, I wonder if religion counts as a lie. Lots of religious people either truly believe, or have done a great job of tricking themselves into thinking they believe.

Much religious belief has a special protected status, though -- you aren't supposed to ask bare questions about the truth value of religious statements, or tell the truth when talking to someone else's kids; Little jimmy: "doing that makes the baby jesus cry" Adult: "Don't worry, Jimmy. Jesus is dead."

Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Jaki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lonergan and you might understand more about "lies"

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much religious belief has a special protected status, though -- you aren't supposed to ask bare questions about the truth value of religious statements, or tell the truth when talking to someone else's kids; Little jimmy: "doing that makes the baby jesus cry" Adult: "Don't worry, Jimmy. Jesus is dead."

Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Jaki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lonergan and you might understand more about "lies"

I read them. What did you want me to see?

Re: Lies We Tell Kids

#380
post #316
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt taboo words are (always, or necessarily) related to taboo thoughts. It's not taboo to think about fucking, but in many contexts it's taboo to use the word instead of its "milder" alternatives.

I think it represents a more taboo set of thoughts / actions than it's milder alternatives. Fill in the blank: Illicit lovers ____ where married people have ____ and young lovers make ____. PS: It's not accurate but many people still think the world started with: "Found/ Under Carnal Knowledge" or "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge" which comes back to the idea that the word means more than just the act of procreation.

Ah, I know the answers!

disport

headaches

mistakes

-----------

Alternatively:

pork

mommy & daddy alone time

the beast with two backs

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The possibilities are overwhelming!

Interestingly, I find that some of the more creative "euphemisms" for sex (pork is a middling example) have more shock value when they show up in conversation... the old standards are simply overused, in spite of our best efforts in child rearing, and don't work anymore in conjuring up sufficiently taboo images. Terse, vivid imagery is much more of a live wire.

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