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Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

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Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#371

Post by mattlondon »

Annatar wrote: post #357
mattlondon wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you'll need just need to get the bus when you cant get a fossil fuel vehicle any more. Good luck. P.S. 350kw fast chargers are typically being advertised as zero to 80% charge in 15 minutes - cars that can accept these chargers are due in the next couple of years from Audi, Ford, BMW et al so mainstream "ordinary" cars as well as exotica like Porsche. I cant find any stats online, but I have read that the ave…

"I guess you'll need just need to get the bus when you cant get a fossil fuel vehicle any more. Good luck." A bus also needs diesel (:-D) My car is old enough that I could make my own biodiesel with the electricity from solar panels and run on it, so when the rest are stuck, I'll always have fuel. Even if nuclear war hits.

There are already 100% electric busses running in London and elsewhere, with more on their way.

Good luck making your own fuel (N.B. in a lot of places it is illegal or in dubious grey-areas, plus there are the obvious environmental and safety implications which might prevent you from doing it one way or another). Why not just use that electricity from the solar panels to charge an EV's batteries?

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#372

Post by expathacker »

reaperducer wrote: post #336
hydrox24 wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the United States, it was somewhat more complex than that. The highway network was and is primarily part of the nation's military defense infrastructure You are right. I am not contesting the Highway system, which actually still seems to be a good case for Federal public spending, both because it benefits the military and because it is inter-state. My point is entirely regarding the roads that were built out fro…

If these were paid for by those who used them Well, they are. That's the 9/10th of a cent that drivers pay on each gallon of gas they purchase. IMO, it should be closer to an even five cents, with half of it going to mass transit. But then I also drank milk and Pepsi mixed together when I was a kid, so I'm not exactly reliable.

If you're speaking about the federal gas tax which goes to the Highway Trust Fund[1], it's currently $0.184 per gallon of petrol and $0.244 per gallon of diesel.

There are also state gasoline taxes, vehicle weight fees (for commercial interstate trucks) registration fees, and tolls[2].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_Trust_Fund 2. https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/07/us-transporta...

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#373

Post by ptaipale »

woobar wrote: post #207
ptaipale wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The two sources is different, so it might be good to be wary about comparing them. Could be right though. But anyway, these average ages may be due to little used old cars being taken out of registry, to avoid annual fixed taxes? This has not much impact on the average age of cars used in daily traffic. FWIW, I'm from Finland, also with a history of high car purchase taxes, and the average in above data is almost 12…

It is the same source for Denmark and Germany. Since US is not a part of EU, so I had to come with a different source. As for your other argument - both reports count "vehicles in use" (ACEA) or "vehicles in operation" (US)

Denmark and Germany are in EU, but that does not mean that statistics are made in the same way.

Also, the "vehicle in use" is not necessarily such a clear definition.

For instance, several of my colleagues own historical vehicles from 1960's and 1970's which are "museum registered", which here means that they must be at least 30 years old, can be used only on 30 days each year, and they are not subject to annual "MOT check" (but a different kind of check every 2-4 years).

Are they included in the "vehicle in use" statistic? I don't know. And I don't know what are the specific regulations for similar vehicles in other countries. Because the cars are 40-50 years old, even a not very big number of them would skew the statistics of average age of cars.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#374

Post by KozmoNau7 »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #271
reacharavindh wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote the comment you responded to. I live in Denmark, and here is my take on this. It's not as extreme that I'd call it "extremist state of affairs". Fewer cars are for the greater good. However, what pisses me the most is how it is really implemented. There is the famous 150% tax when you buy a car, and then there is a green tax every 6 months/quarter that is based on how efficient &a safe your car is. I'm all fo…

> It lead to too many small cars(VW Up, Seat equivalent, and the like) because that's what common people can afford Slightly confused - what's the issue here? Small cars are good. They take up less street space and tend to be more economical. My wife owns a Fiat 500 (which is about as small as you get); it's much easier to park on the narrow streets of our rural town than a bigger car would be, its fuel consumption i…

Large cars are seen as status symbols, so a lot of people think they need a big car to show how successful they are, and to "keep up with the Joneses".

The sooner people shed this silly consumerism mindset, the better.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#375

Post by majewsky »

quickben wrote: post #180
majewsky wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such as? If you're saying "range", I counter that most trips (e.g. most commutes) are well within the range limits of current BEVs.

Such as commuting an hour to work, that may turn out to be two, in Toronto's gridlock, during a cold wave of -45c. "Most trips" doesn't work, the EV proponents want a ban on all ICE cars. Which would force part of the population to buy a truck and commute with it.

> "Most trips" doesn't work, the EV proponents want a ban on all ICE cars.

Politics is all about compromise. You actually have to start out at an extreme position so that when you meet in the middle at the end, it's still somewhat reasonable.

There will be bans on ICE cars at some point, but with a lot of footnotes.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#376

Post by ptaipale »

FullyFunctional wrote: post #339
woobar wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that people hold on to cars longer and buy used more And yet the average age of the car in Denmark is 8.9 years [1]. For comparison Germany is at 9.3 year, and US is at 11.6 years [2] [1] http://www.aut.fi/en/statistics/international_statistics/ave... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/261881/average-age-of-li...

It surprises me and doesn’t match my observations, but there at least one element to take into account: weather. There’s a reason the California car is treasured. Snow and the salt used to fight it is really corrosive to cars in Denmark.

BTW, this has changed with many brands about 15 years ago. Cars made until that tend to disappear from traffic due to corrosion. In around 2000, it became common to galvanize the steel bodies of cars.

Renault actually advertised this at the time: "will rust like a fish", with a picture of a car immersed in water. Seems to be legitimate: corrosion problems have become much more rare.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#377

Post by rasz »

jimmaswell wrote: post #22
reacharavindh wrote: post #13

Wonder what it'd do to the resale value of cars even before 2030. Denmark with their famous 150% registration tax already has cars being used much longer than what I've seen in other countries. I'd love to see the 150% tax waived off for 100% electric cars that are not luxury vehicles. Set strict constraints for a common man car, and incentivize it turning electric. Also, think about the charging infrastructure....

I never understood how anyone possibly felt the ridiculously extremist state of affairs of automobile/fuel regulations/taxes/etc in Denmark is appropriate. The rest of Europe isn't that great either but Denmark is one of or the most insane examples (memory isn't clear on if there was another member state that was even worse). One of the things that makes me grateful to live in the USA - owning and operating a car doe…

>Europe isn't that great either but Denmark is one of or the most insane examples .... One of the things that makes me grateful to live in the USA - owning and operating a car doesn't bankrupt me

until you get into an accident severe enough to need extensive medical attention.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#378

Post by KozmoNau7 »

m3at wrote: post #153

It's a step forward. However I'm surprised that the focus is still on individual cars, construction of an ev is still quite polluting. I expected to see suggestions about increase in public transportation coverage and frequency to compensate, or maybe steps towards self-driven collective fleets (2030 seems ambitious). I don't know Denmark, are public transportation already well developed? Or am I not cynical enough a…

Public transit is relatively well developed. We're a relatively small country, very flat and reasonably densely populated. Obviously public transport is most well-developed in the larger cities, with several expansions in progress.

But even rural areas are serviced by trains and bus lines. It may be slower in rural areas than taking the car, but you can make it work. At least you can do with one car per household instead of two.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#379

Post by KozmoNau7 »

Zekio wrote: post #268
nottorp wrote: post #254

Isn't Denmark the country that taxes new car purchases 120% of the price of the car already? I don't think they're a good indicator of the overall attitude of the EU.

yes, and you were close with 120% but it was recently reduced to 180% from somewhere north of that

Not quite.

It used to be 180% for the high tier, 105% for the low tier. I don't know the cutover points used back then.

Today, it's 85% for the low tier (below ~190K DKK) and 150% for the high tier above that. The cutover point will increase to account for inflation and such.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#380

Post by kwhitefoot »

olivermarks wrote: post #82
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more widely distributed than electricity?

Delivering high voltage to recharge the amperage these batteries need is a whole different grid in remote areas to delivering 240v for light bulbs and fridges. Separately Norway is one of the richest countries on the planet thanks to its offshore oil. Their sovereign fund dwarfs Saudi Arabia in comparison so maybe they currently can cannibalize that revenue to build a supergrid. China is building an ultra high voltag…

The guys who run the British National Grid disagree that the grid needs major changes: http://fes.nationalgrid.com/media/1264/ev-myth-buster-v032.p..., http://fes.nationalgrid.com/media/1253/final-fes-2017-update.... The Norwegians aren't predicting the need for supergrid either: http://publikasjoner.nve.no/rapport/2017/rapport2017_77.pdf (sorry it's in Norwegian and too big for Google and Bing to translate).
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