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Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

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Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#371
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how this can fly over peoples heads, but the point is marketing. There is virtually zero disadvantage in making the phones 2mm thicker and add to their robustness and battery life this way. Virtually zero... except _marketing_ and hence sales.

If sales increase when it is thinner, it stands to reason that customers want thinner devices. Just because you disagree with them doesn’t mean you’re not wrong for saying there is zero disadvantage. The disadvantage is not giving customers what they want.

We can’t know that.

There would have to be two otherwise identical devices, one thick; more robust; larger battery.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#372
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who'd been in the Mac ecosystem and paid the price in time and expense of leaving for a PC a few years back, I'm starting to lean back toward the Mac side. The amount of fiddling and headaches I'm dealing with on Windows is just a huge waste of time. Had to reinstall all my programs after a recent Windows update ruined the OS.

Windows is truly a pain like never before. Going Linux can be very easy these days, depending what you do on the machine.

Working with Unix-Servers every day i still would struggle with a Linux Machine. Tried it in the past and getting things to work wasn't a problem at all.

But 1) i have to admit that i like all this full aluminum fuckery (shame on me) 2) MacOS is for me more "batteries included" then any Unix-Flavor. Yes there a often alternatives on Linux, still i really like to get my shit done quick and easy with tools like preview for example. 3) Better Tools on MacOS: There is some great stuff out there which help me in every way. Alfred, MailMate, MoneyMoney, Postico, Royal TSX, Paw, ... good looking, functional tools. And still i can use all the great command line tools out of the linux world (vim/emacs, bash/zsh, compiler tools, ranger for filenavigation, ...).

I just hope Apple gets their shit together.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#373
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how this can fly over peoples heads, but the point is marketing. There is virtually zero disadvantage in making the phones 2mm thicker and add to their robustness and battery life this way. Virtually zero... except _marketing_ and hence sales.

If sales increase when it is thinner, it stands to reason that customers want thinner devices. Just because you disagree with them doesn’t mean you’re not wrong for saying there is zero disadvantage. The disadvantage is not giving customers what they want.

> If sales increase when it is thinner, it stands to reason that customers want thinner devices.

This isn't something that can be A/B tested when there's only one (thinner) offering. People "need" to upgrade their devices and will ultimately buy and put up with the newer model even it means trading a decent keyboard, potentially better battery life, or a headphone jack.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#374

I like machines that are built to take a beating. My penultimate laptop was an HP Mini 101; I only replaced it on a whim, and still use it from time to time. The keys have been worn to be smooth, concave and most are missing the printed text. When I last opened it up to add an SSD a suprising amount of sand came pouring out; having been taken to many beaches, tossed in bags, and generally used outdoors it had accumul…

> Running Linux, of course. I wish more people would. That's the best way to get any issues fixed, whether by filing bug reports, writing up a workaround on a wiki or Stackoverflow to help others, or fixing the bug. It's important for us to own our own tools, and keep the right to do with them as we wish. We expect this for our servers, but ignore it for laptops and desktops. If developers continue like this, then us…

What bugs? I haven't had a hardware problem in linux since 2005.

I do have a problem reading visio files though. I have a solution, I tell them to f-off and send me a pdf if they want my views.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#375

Apple biggest UX failures always stem from putting form before function. There is a lower limit to thinness/lightness before consumers just don't care, and it was passed long ago. There was great progress made with the unibody Macbook Pros and the Macbook Airs but these latest models are so thin that it's actually annoying and leads to issues like poor battery life, lack of repair-ability, and malfunctioning keyboard…

As someone who spends his day shuffling between conference rooms before mercifully being given time to work, I am grateful for every ounce shaved off of the device I work on. no sacrifice to battery, and it's on my company's dime if it fails.

Why is shuffling between conference rooms so arduous?

When did people become so weak as to not be able to carry a few pounds (or even ounces) between rooms? That's not a good thing and arguing about such little weight is indicative of much bigger health problems than any laptop design issues.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#376

I honestly don't understand all these quality sacrifices just to make things thinner. It makes the product actually feel somewhat cheap and brittle. The same thing confuses me with smartphones. Everyone keeps making these bacteria and finger print magnets thinner... the minute you drop it, it's shattered or unuseable... and so then you're buying a case to protect it from scratches and shatter... so what's the point o…

Especially in cases when it doesn't need to be thinner. I just tried out a Apple Magic Keyboard, which is a razor blade for some reason, and had wrist pain within a few hours of using it. Everybody's different, but this keyboard is trash. It is designed solely to look pretty in marketing photos.

I'm not a keyboard snob. I don't need Cherry MX Blue's to be happy. I thought the Apple Wireless Keyboard (with the AA batteries) was probably a step in the wrong direction, but still fine to type on. But this is quite literally painfully bad. And there was no reason for it, it's not a portable product, it doesn't have heat sinks, screens, fast processors, etc. It's just a keyboard, it would be fine if it's 2mm thicker. Actually it would be better.

It's a keyboard. It's for typing. Come on.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Running Linux, of course. I wish more people would. That's the best way to get any issues fixed, whether by filing bug reports, writing up a workaround on a wiki or Stackoverflow to help others, or fixing the bug. It's important for us to own our own tools, and keep the right to do with them as we wish. We expect this for our servers, but ignore it for laptops and desktops. If developers continue like this, then us…

And why do you think that a lot of people who are painfully aware of all the issues you mention still refuse to use Linux on a laptop while happily using it on servers? There is a riduculous repetitiveness about this debate. For me and many others, Linux on a laptop has always been unstable, insecure, hot and noisy. Many specific issues can be fixed if you put in the effort, but on almost every dist-upgrade something…

> For me and many others, Linux on a laptop has always been unstable, insecure, hot and noisy.

I've successfully converted many people with similar claims over to Linux and here's what I've found; most of them were trying Linux on a subpar, non-standard laptop, (Like an old MacBook or a slow Celeron), to lower their investment if they don't like it, which is fine, but then comparing the experience to their high end MBP running macOS, (try installing macOS to the same set of low-end machines most try to put Linux on, see how that goes). All it took is for them to get good, solid hardware, (like a recent Intel stack, or a Ryzen with a GPU compatible with the AMDGPU driver), and all was good. Not saying that is your case, but it is shockingly common, which is unfair to Linux, I'd say.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#378

I honestly don't understand all these quality sacrifices just to make things thinner. It makes the product actually feel somewhat cheap and brittle. The same thing confuses me with smartphones. Everyone keeps making these bacteria and finger print magnets thinner... the minute you drop it, it's shattered or unuseable... and so then you're buying a case to protect it from scratches and shatter... so what's the point o…

Women will buy thinner phones. Fat phone makes you look fat. A delicate slim phone feels better! (kind of joking, but who knows)

Some people, not just women, might think that thinner means more advanced. After all, it's always been somewhat the case in general - remember the old 5kg monitors? Now you have flat LCDs.

I, however, am uncomfortable with thin laptop. I don't feel it's safe to put it in the backpack with other things. After all, what if I have to run? Will it endure the jolting? What if somebody bumps into me from behind in a crowded place? Probably it will be fine, but it is still somewhat unnerving.

But manufacturers want to make stuff that breaks. If it doesn't the you sell little. It can't be really bad, because then you'll get bad reputation, but if it's too good then you'll be outcompeted. I think it's possible to make a laptop that most likely will never break and will remain upgradeable for the next 50 years. But it would require cooperation from many hardware manufacturers because every part would have to be made with quality in mind, instead of profit and scalability.

We will not cooperate because we don't really need high quality laptops. What we have is good enough.

Gimmicks are easy to add. Some of the most annoying are touchscreens. Why on earth would you need a touchscreen on a laptop? Touching screens makes you look like an idiot. Remember those silly stock images of high tech where people touch holograms? I never liked them. It's like trying to sell electronics to apes. You don't explain, you show with gestures how you can interact with this thingy.

Actually annoying is not the right word. They make me feel uncomfortably superior. I don't know why.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#379
post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully Systemd won’t mount your firmware on a rw partition and brick the laptop in an unfortunate update? (Sarcasm aside... I’d flip in a heartbeat but despite macOS’s lapses, every single time I had to deal with a Linux desktop I regretted it.)

> Hopefully Systemd won’t mount your firmware on a rw partition and brick the laptop in an unfortunate update? That's the hardware's fault.

Mounting a seldom-modified and highly sensitive and critical filesystem r/w by default, when the existence of buggy implementations is known, is a deeply irresponsible decision. Blaming the rest of the world for the fallout from their crappy design decisions is a pattern of behaviour among some systemd developers.

Fortunately you don't have to use systemd. I'm happily running Void Linux.

Re: Apple Engineers Its Own Downfall with the Macbook Pro Keyboard

#380

I like machines that are built to take a beating. My penultimate laptop was an HP Mini 101; I only replaced it on a whim, and still use it from time to time. The keys have been worn to be smooth, concave and most are missing the printed text. When I last opened it up to add an SSD a suprising amount of sand came pouring out; having been taken to many beaches, tossed in bags, and generally used outdoors it had accumul…

How’s the Linux battery management for laptops? This and driver compatibility are usually my biggest concern. I remember 2/3 windows laptops I used were having trouble sleeping/waking up when lids were shut

I have found it to be remarkable over the last few years. I keep coming back to Debian although I've used OpenSuse Tumbleweed in recent times, and some other flavours before that.

With Debian, I've used a very old Dell Latitude (circa 2010, Core2Duo, DDR2, i3wm or XFCE) and newer Dell Inspiron (2017, i5 7th Gen, DDR4, full HD touchscreen display, KDE/XFCE+i3wm) and never had trouble with either sleep/wakeup or with wifi. Touch isn't as great as Windows, so it detects only "left click", not right click, zoom, etc. but I never use touch so it's something I can live with.

Incidentally, I installed Linux because the Windows 10 that came preinstalled had some hardware issue and the fan was always on, so I was getting around 1 hour of battery life. Switching to Tumbleweed (Linux 4.x at that time) gave me amazing battery life, around 5-6 hours. And when Debian 9 (kernel 4.x) got released, I quickly moved to it, and still get around 4-5 hours if I'm doing text editing, browsing and little bit of compiling.

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