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Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

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Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#371
post #184

The majority of comments here being sad about Shkreli kinda reaffirms my views about HN, I have to say. Shkreli always seemed like a personified 4chan teenager "memelord" with money. Good to see that playing out your delusions of grandeur and arrogance toward the justice system is met with consequences. Maybe in prison he will mature a bit.

I think you're going for the low hanging fruit by judging HN that way. The more interesting thing is that the majority of comments are shocked by the 7 year sentence rather than the minority who think he was "an ok guy."

I keep seeing this naive understanding of the law over and over again in tech circles. The justice system is made up of several people with a ton of leeway on how laws are applied. The letter of the law is just a small part of what "illegal" means. Being clever or cute about only breaking the spirit of the law will not save you in court, in fact many times trying to only break the spirit is what will get you convicted on the letter of the law. I hate to say it but I think Aaron Schwartz fell victim to this fallacy and in recent memory so did those flight sim guys who put a keylogger in pirated software.

I've spent a lot of time around lawyers and judges and I can tell you they have absolutely no tolerance for the kind of "well, actually" smart-asses that the tech community excels at churning out.

edit: I just want to add this exchange from the movie Blow which I think really sums up how I feel about the whole thing.

>Judge: George Jung, you stand accused of possession of six hundred and sixty pounds of marijuana with intent to distribute. How do you plead?

>George: Your honor, I'd like to say a few words to the court if I may.

>Judge: Well, you're gonna have to stop slouching and stand up to address this court, sir.

>George: [stands] Alright. Well, in all honesty, I don't feel that what I've done is a crime. And I think it's illogical and irresponsible for you to sentence me to prison. Because, when you think about it, what did I really do? I crossed an imaginary line with a bunch of plants. I mean, you say I'm an outlaw, you say I'm a thief, but where's the Christmas dinner for the people on relief? Huh? You say you're looking for someone who's never weak but always strong, to gather flowers constantly whether you are right or wrong, someone to open each and every door, but it ain't me, babe, huh? No, no, no, it ain't me, babe. It ain't me you're looking for, babe. You follow?

>Judge: Yeah... Gosh, you know, your concepts are really interesting, Mister Jung.

>George: Thank you.

>Judge: Unfortunately for you, the line you crossed was real and the plants you brought with you were illegal, so your bail is twenty thousand dollars.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Criminal fraud is something like "they said they were going to sell me something, but just took my money instead." Civil fraud might be something like "they sold me 10-inch sandwiches as 12-inch sandwiches." Is it purely a matter of partial delivery, or does magnitude matter? What if it's "they sold me 10 tons of gold as 12 tons of gold?" Because that's a big difference. Then again, 10 inch sandwhiches sold as 12 i…

Civil fraud versus criminal fraud is very fuzzy. it often comes down to what you think you can prove about fraudulent intent. I gave the sandwich example because you can create “reasonable doubt” by saying the mistake was due to bad QA, rather than fraudulent intent. The fact that the sandwiches are shorter, by itself, does not prove fraudulent intent. The mortgages are even harder. The banks are accused of lying abo…

Thanks, that makes sense. It's less of a it broke these specific laws" and more "can you prove intent" (IIUC).

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#373
post #184

The majority of comments here being sad about Shkreli kinda reaffirms my views about HN, I have to say. Shkreli always seemed like a personified 4chan teenager "memelord" with money. Good to see that playing out your delusions of grandeur and arrogance toward the justice system is met with consequences. Maybe in prison he will mature a bit.

I think you're going for the low hanging fruit by judging HN that way. The more interesting thing is that the majority of comments are shocked by the 7 year sentence rather than the minority who think he was "an ok guy." I keep seeing this naive understanding of the law over and over again in tech circles. The justice system is made up of several people with a ton of leeway on how laws are applied. The letter of the…

I can tell you have they have absolutely no tolerance for the kind of "well, actually" smart-asses that the tech community excels at churning out.

Or perhaps it merely attracts them.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#374
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sick person: please moderately profitable pharma company, help me. moderately profitable pharma company: Sure, for $50 Sick person: please insanely profitable pharma company post shrekli, help me. insanely profitable pharma company post shrekli: Sure, for $5000

Exactly. Same thing. Both voluntary business transactions subject to the same rules as any other voluntarily exchange. No one is obligated to sell any particular good or service for any particular price. I know a lot of people see this differently but I don't think they have an ethical leg to stand on. When it gets down to it they have no particular rule for fair pricing other than "that feels too high to me."

And yet, Harry, if you had bothered to read the link in my comment, you'd discover that there are laws against price gouging.

Fair pricing can be tricky to determine. However, in Shkreli's case, his entire strategy was to take drugs where a fair price had already been determined by the market and then take advantage of supply constraints to raise the price drastically, by 20-50x.

If you really can't tell the ethical difference between his behavior and normal business, I think you aren't trying hard enough.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#375
post #5

He was so obnoxious that I guess it is easy to be happy about that, but he was so small time in the grand scheme of things. But nearly no bankers responsible for the 2008 financial crisis ever went to jail: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/how-wal...

What were the specific laws that you believe the 2008 crash bankers broke?

Fraud, securities fraud, and forgery would do as a start.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're going for the low hanging fruit by judging HN that way. The more interesting thing is that the majority of comments are shocked by the 7 year sentence rather than the minority who think he was "an ok guy." I keep seeing this naive understanding of the law over and over again in tech circles. The justice system is made up of several people with a ton of leeway on how laws are applied. The letter of the…

I can tell you have they have absolutely no tolerance for the kind of "well, actually" smart-asses that the tech community excels at churning out. Or perhaps it merely attracts them.

It certainly doesn't help. A web designer wouldn't like being told by a lawyer what their job entails either.

When you're dealing with professional egos sometimes it pays to tread lightly. Shkreli learned this the hard way.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In other words, getting rich from increasing the amount of misery in this world. This is the fallacy. He didn't get rich from increasing the amount of misery in the world . He didn't give people toxoplasmosis. He got rich from not doing something he could do ( i.e. sell drugs more cheaply) to decrease the amount of misery. Which is the exact same thing you do when you buy a Macbook Pro instead of donating the money…

Making it harder for patients to get treatment definitely increases the amount of misery in the world. You don't have to be the toxoplasma gondii parasite to make life miserable for a lot of people. It's enough if you're the other kind of parasite who makes the treatment orders of magnitude more expensive, just for personal gain. > fallacy ROTFL - this is like talking about cherries with someone who can's see the col…

He did not make it harder for patients to get treatment, he simply made treatment available at a higher price point. At least he made treatment available when others weren't willing to do so.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#378

To give some background on how his sentencing increased so dramatically, initially he was convicted but since no one lost any money his sentencing guidelines were 0-12 months(most likely no jail time since it was his first offence). As a general rule of thumb in federal fraud cases sentencing is primarily determined by the what's called the "loss amount" of the crime in question. But a couple weeks ago the judge deci…

I heard it was originally going to be 50 days but the judge decided to mark it up by 5000pc

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#379
post #8
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'illegal is illegal' is not at all how sentencing works. Edit: Not sure if you guys are aware of this, but sentencing is actually completely separate from the part of the trial where they decide whether you're guilty or not.

Unfortunately it's how he got into the mess. Without illegal actions there are no sentencing procedures.

With all due respect, I fail to see how this is at all relevant. Could you help me out here?

It feels like you and others here are suggesting that we should not discuss sentencing policies in general because Shkreli was guilty, that seems insane to me.

Re: Martin Shkreli has been sentenced to seven years in prison

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shkreli taught me lots. If it wasn't for shkreli's advice and guidance my stock portfolio would be a mere fraction of what it is today.

Wow, it really is a treasure trove. I'm interested in biotech and could definitely use this kind of primer. Are you investing in biotech or are you just speaking in general?

I do minor investing in biotech. The skills I learnt generally helped me to focus on sectors that applied to my knowledge base more.
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