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Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

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Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#371

Post by ionised »

TomMarius wrote: post #309
ionised wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Noone is going to pay for access to a page with funny pictures So the site will die, because nobody thought it had any value. What's the problem?

Eh, what's the problem ? That a business (someone's living) was pointlessly destroyed, maybe? How do you know that people thought it had no value? It had enough value that they didn't care about all the ads, at least.

Nobody owes you a living.

Nobody owes artists a living, a vocation that traditionally was engaged in alongside traditional paying work.

Nobody owes advertisers living, or their eyes and attention.

Nobody owes a living to the person who makes their money from ads all over their blog.

I'm sorry, but if your business model boils down to using your unknown blog and barely visited web site as a vehicle to bombard people with ads for money then you don't have a business model at all.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#372

Post by ionised »

oh_sigh wrote: post #85
volgo wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How can you tell facebook to not track you without a facebook account? That's the wrong question to ask. You shouldn't have to tell it not to track you. That shouldn't be able to do it, unless you explicitly tell them "hey you can track me."

You're the one in control of your browser. You know it's side effects when you load pages.

Most people do not know these things.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#373

Post by Silhouette »

zaarn wrote: post #368
Silhouette wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GDPR does forbid hinging service quality/availability on consent Although this is one of the areas where it seems some sort of challenge is inevitable. Requiring businesses to give people more control over data about them is one thing. Requiring businesses to do things that make no business sense, like providing services to people despite getting nothing in return, is something else entirely.

It doesn't forbid you to provide free service, to my understanding, you can charge for the service but you can't provide a worse free experience when a user opts out. Additionally, this does not affect data that is necessary to operate the service. When you run a GPS tracker app then it is entirely okay to ask for the right to process someone's position as part of that contract (as long as you don't share it with a t…

There doesn't seem to be any problem with either totally free or paid services. The potential problem is with business models that are free in financial terms but instead rely on some form of data or advertising for their source of revenue.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#374

Post by zaarn »

Silhouette wrote: post #373
zaarn wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't forbid you to provide free service, to my understanding, you can charge for the service but you can't provide a worse free experience when a user opts out. Additionally, this does not affect data that is necessary to operate the service. When you run a GPS tracker app then it is entirely okay to ask for the right to process someone's position as part of that contract (as long as you don't share it with a t…

There doesn't seem to be any problem with either totally free or paid services. The potential problem is with business models that are free in financial terms but instead rely on some form of data or advertising for their source of revenue.

Those services will have to obtain an opt-in for users and can't deny services based on opt-in, yes.

Essentially the GDPR makes such a business model almost unsustainable. IMO rightfully so.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#375

Post by [deleted] »

s73v3r_ wrote: post #345
fwdpropaganda wrote: post #205

I'm genuinely surprised that in this thread we're not seeing the usual idea that this is just the oppressive EU trying to exploit poor American companies. Is it because the article relates to evil Facebook and not Google?

I think it's because most people in this community (hopefully) see invasive tracking as being a terrible thing, which is why most of us run ad-blockers.

[deleted]

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#376

Post by tylergetsay »

kerng wrote: post #283
Zhyl wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, most people see the world like this: * Turn up to job. Nice people, good desk, good canteen. Benefits good. * Work is interesting - working on cutting edge, dynamic web experiences that are changing the way we interact with people. * Solved a knotty engineering problem today. Was very pleased, boss was impressed. * Shipped product today. New sprint starts tomorrow. No defects! The actual implications of any one…

Your post resonated with me, and it might be the social construct of being part of a large organization that allows these things to happen without any single one individual feeling responsible or in the wrong. Years ago I remember hearing about the Normalization of Deviance and in many ways that's exactly what we see. Even Facebook's argument of others do the same is in alignment with such normalization. If everyone…

I recommend the book "Moral Mazes" for more on this subject.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#377

Post by hannnoi »

derefr wrote: post #13
fouc wrote: post #2

>“The cookies and pixels we use are industry standard technologies and enable hundreds of thousands of businesses to grow their businesses and reach customers across the EU,” said Facebook’s VP of public policy for EMEA If it is "industry standard", does that make it ethical?

I think the implication is more, "why are you only paying attention to us ? If you think this is a bad practice, then you should be going after our competitors , too." Corporations tend not to mind if you take away a business strategy of theirs, as long as you take it away from everybody else at the same time. If you only take it away from one corporation, that corporation will be temporarily outcompeted by the corpo…

I'm sure other companies do this, but I'm way more familiar with Facebook's indiscretions. If they're made an example of what's going to be a standard, I wouldn't be surprised if it happens to other companies soon.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#378

Post by Silhouette »

zaarn wrote: post #374
Silhouette wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There doesn't seem to be any problem with either totally free or paid services. The potential problem is with business models that are free in financial terms but instead rely on some form of data or advertising for their source of revenue.

Those services will have to obtain an opt-in for users and can't deny services based on opt-in, yes. Essentially the GDPR makes such a business model almost unsustainable. IMO rightfully so.

I have very mixed feelings on this one.

Personally, I value my privacy. I don't tend to use services like Facebook, mostly because I don't want to encourage that sort of perpetual surveillance or volunteer that much data about myself (or encourage my friends/family/colleagues to do so for me) to be used for purposes I don't fully understand.

On the other hand, apparently there are literally billions of people in the world who disagree with me. Most people I know demonstrably are willing to give up some privacy in return for the convenience that Facebook provides to them.

Requiring such a business to allow users more control over how data about them is being processed is one thing, and there are pros and cons that reasonable people can debate in that area. But I'm not sure the EU has any moral/ethical right to dictate that business models that have supported highly successful businesses with literally unprecedented levels of popular support should no longer be viable, and the conditions we're talking about here look awfully close to allowing that.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#379

Post by hannnoi »

zaarn wrote: post #374
Silhouette wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There doesn't seem to be any problem with either totally free or paid services. The potential problem is with business models that are free in financial terms but instead rely on some form of data or advertising for their source of revenue.

Those services will have to obtain an opt-in for users and can't deny services based on opt-in, yes. Essentially the GDPR makes such a business model almost unsustainable. IMO rightfully so.

Hopefully it specifies opt in instead of opt out. I can't tell you how many things I've forgotten to do while being conscientious because it was just so out of the way.

Re: Facebook’s tracking of non-users ruled illegal again in Europe

#380

Post by andrepd »

Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #263
2aa07e2 wrote: post #197

My question is, will I be able to use gmail without my google searches being tracked? Google did a great job to "bundle" its ToS into a single generic agreement for all the services under that "Your Google account" umbrella. I would love to opt out of that agreement, retroactively, and still be able to use gmail.

You can't interact with Google in any way without being tracked. Use DuckDuckGo and another mail service like ProtonMail or your own self hosted solution.

Alternatively, if you find it hard to abandon Google's great search engine, use a privacy-protecting intermediary, like startpage or searx.
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