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James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

techcrunch.com

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Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#371

Post by mistermann »

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

I watch a fair amount of Microsoft technical videos, and just off the top of my head I can think of 3 people who are very likely to be diversity hires.

Although at the same time and despite being pretty far right on the political spectrum, I think there is some truth to the idea that big companies "should" hire visible minorities over and above those that are fully qualified, but it shouldn't be done at the expense of legitimately qualified people, or that it causes significant harm to product quality.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#372

Post by superquest »

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

After your first two paragraphs, you mostly allude to the truths contained in Damore's document.

Could you elaborate a little more about its "ugliness"?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#373

Post by Veen »

lukev wrote: post #345
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He very clearly stated that the average male programmer is as good as the average female programmer. Please don't insinuate otherwise by stripping away some of the semantics Mr. Damore used - he used it for a reason to make a more precise claim than you're criticizing.

Again, that's not the argument. Even stating that men are more suited to become programmers* is problematic!

Is it problematic if it's true?

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#374

Post by namelost »

debt wrote: post #257
bsaul wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's the spirit. Let's burn the witch. Unless i missed something, the guy never advocated violence or gender discrimination, or making anyone's life miserable. He expressed opinion on scientific explanation. You may find it very stupid, but what in your mind makes you think it's OK to destroy a man's life for his opinion, and then i suppose pretend to be someone with high moral grounds.

It's never okay to destroy a man's life, but he made a poor choice to have his life destroyed. I don't know why he did that. People do stupid things all the time. Centuries of gender discrimination, in a field that is very publicly plagued by it, in a world that is still broken with it, what was Damore thinking? Everyone has the freedom to act, but no one has freedom from the consequences of the act.

That is a very strange notion of freedom (albeit pervasive). Everybody has the freedom to shoplift but no one has freedom from the consequences of shoplifting.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#375

Post by praestigiare »

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

You claim that there is a pattern of bad diversity hires, but your anecdotes are just as easily explained by confirmation bias: You see an incompetent male engineer, and you write him off as an idiot and forget him. You see an incompetent woman, and she becomes evidence that there is a problem with diversity programs. You remember evidence that supports your narrative.

Obviously my statement is not evidence either. I only wanted to point it out because this is so often overlooked when it comes to these issues. This is an arena where our cognitive biases are especially pernicious, and any discussion needs to address them.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#376

Post by Idontknowmyuser »

dotnetisnotdead wrote: post #296

Honestly, this whole thing is just ugly. I read what he wrote. It was (mostly) ugly but contained a lot of truth. Before you downvote/call me a Nazi, I'm a mixed race woman in tech. I definitely see people hired just because of their minority status. I also see people hired who are minorities but also great at their job. It's not a binary pattern. But those who are hired just because they are a POC or female, yet are…

I hate the fact that you need to state "you're a mixed race woman in tech.". I'm not blaming you, I'm blaming the outrage culture instilled in big part by a bigoted academic clique.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#377

Post by [deleted] »

paulgb wrote: post #18
Veen wrote: post #3

From the article: > women may not be equally represented in tech because they are biologically less capable of engineering Why do news outlets persistently misrepresent what he actually said? I've read his memo and just about every news article says it contains claims that it doesn't. I have no view on whether he's right or not, but I remain shocked at the misrepresentation of his views throughout the tech media.

Is the quote you pulled not saying the same thing as this from Damore's memo? > I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Edit: ebbv beat me to it

[deleted]

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#378

Post by TeMPOraL »

criddell wrote: post #326
DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you're suggesting he both lies, and acts with disingenuity. I don't think it's reasonable to ask him to do that.

I would assume that any apology would be backed up by some king of statement about what he has learned since the memo. At the very least he should have learned how important soft skills are and that his idea of what makes a good engineer was woefully incomplete. If he hasn't learned anything, then why would anybody hire the guy?

But out of the things he could have learned, which ones would make for a good public apology? If he goes public, and says - "I honestly apologize for my mistake, I never realized you people could so violently overreact to what's essentially politely expressed feasibility comment backed by scientific consensus, and that in the process you'll so maliciously misrepresent me and lie about my intentions and the contents of my memo" - how will that sound to the crowd? Because that's what his mistake really was - not realizing he's not dealing with rational people.

Re: James Damore has filed a class action lawsuit against Google

#379

Post by ddlsmurf »

geofft wrote: post #310
ddlsmurf wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

source please (as in when he lied) ?

He previously had "PhD, Systems Biology" on his LinkedIn profile under his Harvard section - which I get that, to other academics, probably means "I was working on a PhD between these years," but sounds very much like "I have a PhD in Systems Biology from Harvard" to anyone from the outside. (I have an incomplete master's degree personally, and I'm careful to write "BS and coursework towards MEng" on my resume and no…

In this instance I really do not trust media sources, there is too much disparity between the reporting and primary source. I'll accept your having seen that, but, with the same caveat you point out. Indeed that is indelicate.
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