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WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

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Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#371
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't downvote you, but I imagine the counterpoint goes something like "The advantage of Signal over your solution is that more than 3% of the population can set it up".

The 3% get a little larger when you give them this link (German) ;-) https://www.jabber.de/clients/android-ios/conversations-guid... But I agree: it should be even simpler to set up.

Conversations does optimize for ease of use versus configurability, which is great, but most people have stuff to do, and figuring out what XMPP parameters to use etc isn't in that list. That's why making something that's as simple as possible is very important.

Conversations could go even further and hide the XMPP details, connecting to (or creating an account on) a default server, and have the "advanced" settings behind a "I already have an XMPP account" link.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, assuming that bitcoin can be tracked and deanonymized, it would. Although, all cryptocoins are a step back. There's no way they could support transactions-per-second necessary. As much as I like cards, I also prefer paying for stuff with cash. In Portugal it is illegal to buy an expensive computer, or high-end computer monitor, or a high-end TV with cash. Similar thing in France. Imagine yourself throwing a din…

I would find more ridiculous (or suspicious) someone carrying 2000€ in cash in this day and age for whatever reason, to be honest. It is clearly a measure created to prevent tax evasion, which in Portugal is a real issue (as in most Southern Europe countries, I'm Italian) http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/may-2016-portugal-named-... . Since, as your parent says, in Portugal cashless systems are convenient are effic…

> I would find more ridiculous (or suspicious) someone carrying 2000€ in cash in this day and age for whatever reason, to be honest.

You'd think.

I bought a house in Japan and I had to pay my deposit in cash, approximately US$10,000. Walking around with that much money, I've never been more paranoid in my life.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cookie popup is terrible, I agree. Some pros: Being able to force social networks to provide me with a physical copy of my data is alone a reason to get an EU citizenship. I don't even use the social networks, i just demand my data every 3 months to FB, Tinder and Linkedin to punish them for being so aggressive in their spamming and tracking. Being safe from throttling, censorship and all the nice stuff that US I…

Wow. What sort of data do they send?

You can do this with phone companies in Denmark, and you'll get your location history. As they are required to keep that.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#374
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not to mention that they have a continent wide security service, special forces, many spy agencies and large armies. The EU has no special forces, spy agencies, or army. Let alone a large one. Yes: the EU's member states have armies. But so do the member states of the CERN cooperation. That doesn't mean it's a particle accelerator with an air force. Nor does the EU have any impact on criminal law, so you won't be a…

The EU is of course a massivly complex beast and to talk about these issues in a hacker news comment I had to simplyfy. While its correct that the EU does not have these things, even if they want to have them. The agreements for information exchange and other programs alonge these lines do get negotiated above the state-to-state level and the EU is absolutly involved. Second, privacy laws that pass on the EU level ar…

This post is more reasonable than your previous one, but it doesn't add much meat to your initial thesis.

Initially you seemed to be objecting to the EU's privacy actions against private companies such as Facebook, based on what appeared to be the idea that it's hypocritical for the EU to do so while invading privacy themselves. You also suggested that EU privacy rules are drawn as part of a strategy to make it easier to get access to such data themselves.

I still fail to see any mechanism for these arguments to work: It's perfectly possible that the EU takes a hard line of private company's use of data with purely good intentions, while not living up to those standards themselves. That is, in fact, what Occam's Razor would suggest, considering we all see our use of user data as benign, at least in comparison to others'.

I still disagree with the idea that the EU itself is a bad actor with regards to private data. Conflating legislation in member states in your criticism only serves Anti-EU populism, when the EU has in reality been a force for citizens' right across the continent.

To use your own example: the EU's Data Retention Directive was actually invalidated by the European Court of Justice in 2013: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive. In the course of that case, it also established "that general and blanket data retention is no longer possible".

This has a lasting effect on efforts in member states to create their own data retention laws. Quote: In a television interview, the EU Advocate General Pedro Cruz Villalón highlighted the risk that the retained data might be used illegally in ways that are "potentially detrimental to privacy or, more broadly, fraudulent or even malicious".

As to the second point, namely that action on private data collection somehow makes it easier for governments to access such data, you fail to give a mechanism for this process, as well.

Yes, the toll-road example shows that any collection of data will sooner or later attract the attention of, for example, law enforcement. But how does action against WhatsApp/Facebook make any efforts to access WhatsApp/Facebook data easier? Everyone already knows that Facebook's data is incredibly valuable for law enforcement, yet also sensitive. Law enforcement agencies have for years accessed that data via court orders.

Toll Collect happens to be a great example showing that the best way to keep law enforcements' grubby hands off our data is to never collect such data in the first place. That's something called "data minimisation", and it's the cornerstone of the EU's privacy directive, and also at the heart of this WhatsApp/FB action.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side. I'm European, and I sure miss my perceived greater freedom and innovation of economical activities in the US. Things like having UBER banned for example in France or Germany completely throws me off. And in Germany you don't know yet what's living without cash and only with a credit card. And those damn cookie notices!! Because they show up in every page, everybo…

> And in Germany you don't know yet what's living without cash and only with a credit card. That's because we had our own system established in 1984 (ELV, electronic direct debit based on the EC cards mentioned elsewhere). From a German point of view, a credit card is a downgrade. - The system covered all German banks (private banks, public banks = Sparkassen, credit unions) because they got their act together and se…

> From a German point of view, a credit card is a downgrade.

Not only germans use the german system. When other Europeans go to European institutions that are placed in Germany, we can't use electronic payments. A system established 34 years ago should not be an acceptable excuse for a subpar service.

It is a shame (and quite fraud-risky!) to go on a taxi and have to wait 5-10 minutes for the taxi driver to carbon copy your credit card details in the invoice (now he only needs to memorize 3-4 digits for the security number), whilst in the same country Uber, and other similar services that provide immediate payment facilities with no open handling of sensitive data, have been banned.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And in Germany you don't know yet what's living without cash and only with a credit card. That's because we had our own system established in 1984 (ELV, electronic direct debit based on the EC cards mentioned elsewhere). From a German point of view, a credit card is a downgrade. - The system covered all German banks (private banks, public banks = Sparkassen, credit unions) because they got their act together and se…

You think of credit cards as a way to transfer funds, but miss the "credit" part of the name. I like having the option to to buy now and pay later at the same price point as paying right now.

Same price point, except that credit cards usually cost extra here.

Since bank transfers are immediate now (unlike in the past when monthly batching was cost effective) and most credit cards in Germany are managed by the banks and coupled to bank accounts, they could just reconcile all transactions immediately (and even reject those that overdraw too much).

In such a situation, credit would become a risk adjusted premium feature and you'd have to calculate if it's worth it (vs the bank's regular interest rate on overdraw).

Plus, according to the OECD Germans have somewhat higher household savings (relative to household income) than Americans, so the liquidity might be comparable without using credit.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#377
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It creates a healthier society in long run if people cannot spend money they don't have. Some goes for the uber decision, I think it's healthier for the job market and society in general when this kind of exploitation of employees is not possible. User experience of debit cards is just fine, I don't carry any cash, and typing a pin code is just as fast as singing your signature. And currently in the Netherlands debit…

> It creates a healthier society in long run if people cannot spend money they don't have Ok, now explain this: https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm Denmark, Holland and Norway are nobody's idea of unhealthy societies -- and households there have well over double the debt load of US households.

Those countries have nowhere near the same consumerism culture as the United States.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It creates a healthier society in long run if people cannot spend money they don't have Ok, now explain this: https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm Denmark, Holland and Norway are nobody's idea of unhealthy societies -- and households there have well over double the debt load of US households.

Those countries have nowhere near the same consumerism culture as the United States.

With respect, that's a horrible generalization, and does nothing to refute my point that households Europe are in much more debt (as a share of disposable income) than US households.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think of credit cards as a way to transfer funds, but miss the "credit" part of the name. I like having the option to to buy now and pay later at the same price point as paying right now.

Same price point, except that credit cards usually cost extra here. Since bank transfers are immediate now (unlike in the past when monthly batching was cost effective) and most credit cards in Germany are managed by the banks and coupled to bank accounts, they could just reconcile all transactions immediately (and even reject those that overdraw too much). In such a situation, credit would become a risk adjusted pre…

You are missing my point. I don't care if credit reconciles immediately at the bank level or not, I care about what credit cards allow me to do, which is smooth over lumpy cashflow.

If I have expenses of 100K a year, without access to credit I have to make 100K a year without fail, or I am insolvent. With credit, I can make 100K one year, 0 the next and 200K (+ whatever interest I need to pay for Year 2) in the final year. The optionality is more than worth whatever interest and surcharges I encountered by using credit in Year 2.

Lest you think this is insane, this is how I bootstrapped my last business.

Re: WhatsApp told to stop sharing user data with Facebook by French authorities

#380
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It creates a healthier society in long run if people cannot spend money they don't have. Some goes for the uber decision, I think it's healthier for the job market and society in general when this kind of exploitation of employees is not possible. User experience of debit cards is just fine, I don't carry any cash, and typing a pin code is just as fast as singing your signature. And currently in the Netherlands debit…

> It creates a healthier society in long run if people cannot spend money they don't have Ok, now explain this: https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm Denmark, Holland and Norway are nobody's idea of unhealthy societies -- and households there have well over double the debt load of US households.

This debt, at least in Norways case, is probably mostly due to a very large portion of people buying their own home. Its a lot more common here than in other countries and when growing up, at some point buying your own home is almost expected of you. It is also heavily incentivized by the government through tax policy. This is probably creating a housing bubble of sorts, so i guess we'll see how well that turns out at some later date, but i assume that is the reason Norway is where it is on that chart.
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