New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary • Hacker News Board

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#371

Post by icelancer » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 10:39 PM UTC

fierro wrote: post #268

icelancer wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>But have you thought about why you feel this way? Yes. I don't want to increase my attractiveness regarding a house robbery, as I live well below my means in a developing neighborhood, amongst other reasons. I very much understand the concept of leverage and have no problems privately discussing my salary amongst groups that I trust. That doesn't include the entire Internet.

I feel like this is kind of silly. Anyone could make a reasonable estimate of your salary based on your job, which is easily discoverable. At least enough to make a decision "should I rob this house." What are we even talking about here?

>>Anyone could make a reasonable estimate of your salary based on your job, which is easily discoverable.

That would require two things, I guess. My name, and the ability to estimate my salary based on the company I run. I am pretty sure even if I told you both you'd miss by a significant amount.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#372

Post by mundo » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 10:40 PM UTC

rpowers wrote: post #38

Really wish this would extend to apartment rent applications. I'm fine with a credit check, but they don't need to know how high they can increase my rent before I'll need to move. edit I am referring to my experience renting apartments from Property Management run communities. (Think Essex or Prometheus) Rent increases every year with them.

Do you have any reason to think they do this? With "this" meaning "give higher rent hikes to tenants with high incomes than they otherwise would've." It doesn't sound remotely plausible to me.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#373

Post by s73ver_ » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 10:40 PM UTC

kirykl wrote: post #312

I was asked once at an interview for my current salary, since I barely wanted the new job I gave them a number $20k less than true. The recruiter immediately said the job pays $10k less than that.

So wait, you said a number, and the recruiter said that the job paid less than what they believed you were currently making?

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#374

Post by syshum » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 10:40 PM UTC

rifung wrote: post #208

TearsInTheRain wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The goal is to narrow the gender wage gap. This makes the law seem even more ridiculous to me. Do we really need the government stepping into the hiring process like this and micromanaging? It feels like they treating us like children incapable of tying our own shoes or something

> This makes the law seem even more ridiculous to me. Why is it more ridiculous? We already have laws against discrimination based on gender. If the issue isn't being solved, while being hands off, it seems natural to try something different. > It feels like they treating us like children incapable of tying our own shoes or something Well it does seem employers are incapable of eliminating the gender wage gap so perh…

Except for the fact that male and female pay for the same job, and experience level are statistically the same and there is no actual pay gap.

The $0.79 on the $1 shit has been debunked a million times yet is still persists for some reason.

The last good study I read showed a gap of something like 5% which was in the statistical margin and was largely accounted for by negotiation tactics.

For an anecdote I (a male) earn less than many other men in my same job, and same experience level. Why because I am TERRIBLE at salary negotiation, (or any other price negotiation, i.e I prefer the CarMax pay what the sticker says model to the haggle over every last $1 model)

At the same time, I have been involved in the hiring of both male and female employees in the IT world, never once at any time I have ever seen, heard or been a part of discussions where a person would be offered to get a lower salary simply because of their gender.

Every hiring process I have ever been involved in the Pay scale is always set long before we even have any applicants. We have a budget, wages for each position are set based on the budget the gender or personal circumstances of the person have no factor in it. We have to find someone that not only fits the job requirements, but also the salary requirements. That can be a challenge, and we have had to pass on candidates simply because we could not meet their salary demands.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#375

Post by FireBeyond » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 10:41 PM UTC

rpowers wrote: post #38

Really wish this would extend to apartment rent applications. I'm fine with a credit check, but they don't need to know how high they can increase my rent before I'll need to move. edit I am referring to my experience renting apartments from Property Management run communities. (Think Essex or Prometheus) Rent increases every year with them.

Yeah, a PM company around here (Olympia, WA) had two separate websites, one targeted at renters, one at landlords.

Nothing was mentioned on the renter site, and verbal promises (worth the paper they're written on, etc., etc.) made to renters said that they "heavily discouraged arbitrary rent increases as they felt properties were priced fairly in consultation with the owner"...

Meanwhile on the owner / landlord site: "We ensure you get the maximum return on your investment, including yearly rental increases of the maximum allowed by law or as close to it as possible".

Awkward moment for the PM showing me a place when I showed her that website and asked her to reconcile the two positions.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#376

Post by FireBeyond » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 10:42 PM UTC

mundo wrote: post #372

rpowers wrote: post #38

Really wish this would extend to apartment rent applications. I'm fine with a credit check, but they don't need to know how high they can increase my rent before I'll need to move. edit I am referring to my experience renting apartments from Property Management run communities. (Think Essex or Prometheus) Rent increases every year with them.

Do you have any reason to think they do this? With "this" meaning "give higher rent hikes to tenants with high incomes than they otherwise would've." It doesn't sound remotely plausible to me.

I guarantee it. Some PM companies I'd rate lower than debt collection agencies on the ethics scale. See my sibling comment, promising owners they'd find ways to apply the maximum possible rent increases.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#377

Post by cisanti » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 10:43 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #336

PatientTrades wrote: post #172

This is a bad law. This will perpetuate the wage gap between men and women employees. These kind of laws will continue the "don't ask, don't tell" aura around salary information. Instead of making this information secret, salary information needs to be pushed more public, so that when someone is paid less for equal work, there is absolutely no doubt about the salary that each employee receives.

I think it's just the opposite. Allowing employers to ask wage history helps maintain the wage gap. If women are underpaid at their first job, then that will propagate forward to future offers. If they can't ask, then they'll have a harder time knowing whether they can continue to underpay a woman. Having a stated salary range also makes it a little harder for them to play games.

What stops people lying about the wage? I suspect men do it more often and negotiate bigger salaries this way.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#378

Post by s73ver_ » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 10:43 PM UTC

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #222

yeukhon wrote: post #206

NY has this in effect, but quite a few companies whose headquarters are based in NYC still ask applicants for their prior salary range on their applications. I hope this is just a lag, not ignoring the law deliberately. Also, we should outlaw employers from asking applications their desired salary range; the negotiation should happen after interviews. Employers should either specify a range or give a figure in the jo…

So as an employer, I should just waste mine and the applicant’s time and then find out they want more than I can possibly pay them? No thanks.

No, you should be up front with your salary range.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#379

Post by analog31 » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 10:44 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #60

I'd prefer to see this go in the other direction and make all salary information public. Right now, employers have far more information than employees, and I don't think this law will do much to change that. To me, it's similar to real estate - imagine if only sellers had access to the database of exactly what every house sold for and when, but buyers had to go with unsubstantiated, scattered rumors. Or vise versa. T…

>>> This law won't do much, if anything, to change the basic dynamic. For what it's worth, I work for a public institution and my salary, and the salary of all my coworkers, is public. The sky hasn't fallen.

Are you a schoolteacher? There is a widespread public backlash against the salaries of schoolteachers, which are perceived to be too high. This has dramatically affected the ability to attract good people.

I think that how public perception affects public sector salaries varies from one job to another. The public loves the salary that we pay to our state's college football coach.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#380

Post by FireBeyond » Wed, Oct 18, 2017, 10:44 PM UTC

usaar333 wrote: post #144

rpowers wrote: post #38

Really wish this would extend to apartment rent applications. I'm fine with a credit check, but they don't need to know how high they can increase my rent before I'll need to move. edit I am referring to my experience renting apartments from Property Management run communities. (Think Essex or Prometheus) Rent increases every year with them.

You can always write a salary lower than what you make.. Regardless, it's rarely in your own interest to conceal it unless you have privacy concerns. 1. Landlords are going to prefer candidates with higher salaries. 2. It's really unclear to me that landlords use your salary to determine rent increases. e.g. My rent has always been well under what could be covered by my salary and I'd move long before it reaches that…

> You can always write a salary lower than what you make..

It's... optimistic... that you think they're going to take you at face value when you do so, rather than requiring employment / income verification.

And in most cases, "the information on this application is true to the best of my knowledge and I understand that my application may be rejected if I provide false information"...