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Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

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Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#371
What we all in tech are forgetting is that this gender gap exists in all fields, including medicine. The more interesting problem with medicine is that the pipeline is basically at equity (close to 50/50 male/female graduates).

However, according to this article (https://amino.com/blog/how-the-gender-gap-is-shifting-in-med...) even medicine is seeing severe gender gaps based on the specialty that is chosen.

This was their analysis:

Only 7% of all orthopedic surgeons; 15% of orthopedic surgeons beginning their practice in 2015

9% of urologists; 21% of urologists beginning their practice in 2015

13% of cardiologists; 25% of cardiologists beginning their practice in 2015

Why are there so few women working in these specialties? According to Mayo Clinic's Ian Mwangi, “There’s a stereotype that orthopedic surgeons are jocks, that the field requires brute strength.” There’s a lengthy feature article on Orthopedics Today that explores other reasons women aren’t entering orthopedics, including less exposure to the field in medical school, discouragement among advising faculty and deans, and the perception of poor work-life balance.

NPR explains that there may be gender disparity among urologists because of a "misconception of the field ... that urologists treat male problems like prostate cancer and erectile dysfunction."

Women seeking a career in cardiology face similar deterrents, including the “impairments to family planning, poor work-life balance, and perceived radiation risks,” according to this fellows' perspective published in the Journal of American College of Cardiology.

In most of my research, I found that a lack of female role models was also a key reason why more women didn’t enter these specialties, echoing a trend across industries. Doximity reports that women represent only 22% of physician leaders.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#372
post #25

Good. I get that HN is not into this, but this employee stated, bluntly, that they don't believe many of their colleagues should be there because of their sex. Every peer review, every no-hire, every interaction , is and should be suspect. Happy where I am now, but future interviews will include me asking what management would do about this, and termination is the only correct answer. This is textbook hostile environ…

> this employee stated, bluntly, that they don't believe many of their colleagues should be there because of their sex.

No, he started that Google's hiring practices are biased towards certain candidates. If that causes offense, it should be directed at those in charge of hiring practices, not the guy who reported them.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#373

As a white man, I have concerns that my ethnic / gender group is being persecuted. How should I raise these issues for discussion, in a professional environment?

The employees at Google are overwhelmingly white and male. According to this article Google employee makeup is as follows; -70% male/30% female -61% white / 30% Asian, 4% identifying as two or more races, 3% Hispanic, 2% black, and 1% other

The tech industry is heavily male and majority Anglo (aka white), with a large Asian representation. I presume that if you are on on hacker news you work in the tech industry or work at a startup of some sort.

I would prefer to not sweep your comment under the table. Its conceivable that there might be something that as a white male you are could be 'persecuted' by someone at your place of employment. However you are going to have to provide some real evidence how you are being victimized when the numbers are so tilted in your favor. And if this is true it is most likely one person, perhaps a superior? Gather some evidence in form of emails, documentation, etc. I'm not sure what kind of persecution you are the victim of but your first steps might be to discuss things with your immediate supervisor, or if that person is the source of your persecution then talk to HR or your bosses boss.

If you feel like moving to another team or a project might help look for internal postings at the company, talk to other people in other teams to see if you would be a good fit. A lateral move within the company might make a big difference.

One thing I would NOT do is write a letter about how women are prone acting neurotic, and complain about general efforts to get more women and minority members involved at your company. I would also advocate against complaining about being a minority based on your political beliefs, that the entire company you work for makes you feel ostracized because your political beliefs don't align with what your employers. That's probably a bad idea.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#374

The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of thei…

It's quite ironic: in their push for equality and inclusion, these liberals have created an environment where one faces exclusion and persecution for simply having political beliefs that align with a large portion of their fellow U.S. citizens. This is a very real thing. I never felt uncomfortable with my own political alignment before 2015 but I wouldn't dare put a GOP candidate sticker on my laptop now. It's not th…

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Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#375
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If gender-based diversity programs are responsible for qualified women getting jobs that they otherwise wouldn't have gotten due to bias, then the lack of that program means those women wouldn't have gotten those jobs. This is a double sword thing. With the program you might hire more qualified women, but also more less qualified women and you might prevent of hiring more qualified men. Because you have to hire wom…

> This is a double sword thing. With the program you might hire more qualified women, but also more less qualified women and you might prevent of hiring more qualified women. Because you have to hire women as the diversity program says. Are you saying there are no situations in which applying a systematic adjustment as a function of gender to interview scores could result in a predictable net-fitness-increase in the…

> Are you saying there are no situations in which applying a systematic adjustment as a function of gender to interview scores could result in a predictable net-fitness-increase in the resulting skill distribution of hired people?

Yes if you don't try to match the distribution of the pool of candidates. if the pool of candidates ratio is 10/90 and your goal in the company is 10/90, I am ok with anything that helps you to get close to the 10/90. (When both distributions are normal gaussian with similar mean and average. I don't see basketball teams hiring short people to fit the ratio or the pool of candidates)

> That's not really the important question though. Would you prefer being not being hired due to bias even though you are qualified, or being hired despite bias, even though you know it will make some people think you weren't really qualified?

I prefer being hired because they saw my skills. I think is better in the long term. If I am qualified for a job I will find it, it could take me more time but at some point I will find it and I will be happier than in a job where they saw me hired by a diversity program. Of course if I need the job to survive wouldn't care, but I think this is not the common case (or I might be wrong but as I said in another comment this is my personal opinion, other will think differently)

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#377
post #224

The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of thei…

It's not about virtue signaling, he was almost certain to be terminated just because it was a ridiculously stupid thing to say - you can't tell your teammates that they were hired because their employer lowered the bar and expect people not to be upset about it (and that's 100% what he did, he also made up pseudo-scientific bullshit to try to justify it, but he flat out insulted countless people within his company).…

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Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#378
post #224

The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of thei…

It's not about virtue signaling, he was almost certain to be terminated just because it was a ridiculously stupid thing to say - you can't tell your teammates that they were hired because their employer lowered the bar and expect people not to be upset about it (and that's 100% what he did, he also made up pseudo-scientific bullshit to try to justify it, but he flat out insulted countless people within his company).…

How far do you take it? For example, here is an article suggesting that female doctors are better than male doctors: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/12/female-do...

Should a female doctor avoid mentioning this article to a male colleague to avoid getting fired?

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#379
I strongly feel this was a PR move by Google. I read the article and although I disagree with many of the points stated, firing the person was an extreme step. It would set a wrong precedent for anyone trying to speak up against the majority. A behind the door warning and a rap on wrist would have been enough.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#380

The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of thei…

> Everyone is just rushing to virtue signal

You have unwittingly provided an example of the "unconscious bias" against women that Google's programs seek to unpack and correct.

The term "virtue signal" implies that one's reaction is motivated by a desire to make an impression on others, a superficial and calculated response. But to a woman, reading an essay full of gender stereotypes can create a real sense of pain and outrage. So when you're saying "virtue signal", you're really mostly talking about men.

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