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The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

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Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#371
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen people driven out just for saying someone else looks good in a bathing suit. understandably, as that is extremely unprofessional and sexual harassment

I think the exact wording and context is important here. "Hey Googlette, you look really good in a bathing suit" is a comment about how the woman's body looks in a revealing outfit. I'd say this is generally unprofessional, though in some contexts (perhaps she'd just been expressing a lack of confidence in her body), it could still be appropriate. "Hey Googlette, that bathing suit looks really good on you" is a comme…

a good rule of thumb is just to never make any comments about a female coworker's body. it's very easy to cross over to unprofessional territory and make someone feel uncomfortable or degraded. that's the rule I've followed my entire life.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#372
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they aren't difficult to prove, and this is what really really bothers me. We've got hundreds of thousands of years of innate, biologically formed behaviors that we have because they were evolutionarily advantageous. I'm not saying we should use these differences to discriminate, what I'm saying is that it's pretty easy to observe that they inform behavior and career preference.

Do you have any peer reviewed citations for those claims? If this is as certain as you're assuming, it should be easy to point to the underlying mechanism and evolutionary underpinnings.

Ha. The Evolutionary Psychology wiki is probably a good start, but if you're skeptical of evolution I'm not confident anything I'd link would convince you.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#373
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you asserting that height and muscle mass are significant determiners of success in technological careers? We are discussing mental and psychological variables about which essentially all of the opinions presented in the history of humanity have been unadulterated crap. So, yes, I want scientific sources.

> Are you asserting that height and muscle mass are significant determiners of success in technological careers? No. Well, actually, both might have some influence in social settings, but significant for success I doubt. > We are discussing mental and psychological variables ... So, yes, I want scientific sources There are pretty evident differences in that area you can see without any science. Gender ideologists try…

> There are pretty evident differences in that area you can see without any science.

Fortunate that these unnamed differences are so obvious as to not require scientific confirmation.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#374
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what the whole deal is about "STEM majors" and "computer science majors", but can it maybe not be such a thing? I don't see why it matters one way or another, and having never gone to school, I can't imagine how whatever intellectual canalization you seem to be hinting at would be applicable here in any case. It just seems to be adding a lot more heat than light, and I'm really not seeing what it brings…

I was a STEM major (physics) and I work in tech. I'm attacking from inside, not outside. I think that there is a specific culture in STEM whereby white men who are incredibly gifted and successful in math/science/whatever think that their natural brilliance gives them the ability to speak on all social issues with authority, and that they can speak from a purely rational perspective. My point is that things like your…

I mean I don't even know what you're attacking.

> They should have more humility, and be more open to listening to the stories of people instead of just trying to think of things in terms of Numbers.

Throughout my entire career, which now approaches the close of its second decade, I have known exactly one person who might even possibly match this description. Last week, he filed the initial paperwork to declare his candidacy for the House seat in his district, whose longstanding incumbent is probably going for a Senate seat next year. He's running as a Democrat, and his entire platform revolves around improving social welfare by eliminating inefficiencies without cutting benefits rolls - indeed, while expanding them. He's advocating a tax-neutral, net-positive-payout plan for a universal basic income!

He's doomed, of course. Even in Maryland - even in Baltimore, he doesn't stand a chance, because he is a man of unusual personality who does not make friends easily or quickly inspire confidence in strangers. But I love him for trying. And I have no idea in the world what you're talking about with this "numbers over people" culture among people in our field and those adjacent. I don't doubt your observations, although I do find them wildly at odds with my own experience. But my own observations do not in any sense bear out your analysis that is culture arises specifically from "STEM-ness" of people instead of some other quality, and I'm not interested in abandoning my observations for your own, either.

Are you sure that your analysis of this phenomenon's origin is not wildly off base? Because, you know, I think maybe your analysis of this phenomenon's origin might be wildly off base.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that "???" is unrigorous handwaving. And I don't think it purports to be rigorous; from the document: "Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership." (emphasis mine). "May" and "in part." I don't think this purports to be a proof. Is this argument any more rigorous? 1. There is a non-50% representation bet…

The difference is that we know that unjust discrimination and social pressure exist; we know it was historically very bad; and we have a concrete theory of causation. With the biological explanation there is no theory of causation.

We have theories for why DNA makes men and women's bodies different, and how society can create power structures and discrimination.

But you claim we have no possible theory for how DNA could make men and women's minds different, or that society could create differences in how much genuine interest women have in tech?

We don't really know why some people are straight and some people are gay. Does this mean we deny that gay people exist? My father is gay and his identical twin is straight. How did this happen? According to Wikipedia, studies have shown this trend often enough to conclude that genetics alone can't explain sexuality. So do we just argue that there really is no difference between gay and straight people (ie. it's a choice), because we don't understand the precise reason for the difference?

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#376
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you asserting that height and muscle mass are significant determiners of success in technological careers? No. Well, actually, both might have some influence in social settings, but significant for success I doubt. > We are discussing mental and psychological variables ... So, yes, I want scientific sources There are pretty evident differences in that area you can see without any science. Gender ideologists try…

> There are pretty evident differences in that area you can see without any science. Fortunate that these unnamed differences are so obvious as to not require scientific confirmation.

> And there are quite some sources linked in this comment thread.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...other fields, in particular medicine and law Women were literally not allowed to be doctors or lawyers, either by law or by certification boards. Programming has never been a field requiring certification.

At least in law that's not true. There were licensed women lawyers long before it became common for women to be in the profession.

I was referring to when women were disallowed from law schools or bar associations. But there's a bit of nuance to the history of it. Women have been in court in different ways for a long time.

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/awhhtml/awlaw3/women_lawyers.htm...

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#378
post #131
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. There are claims that for example men are better at spacial reasoning (imagining/navigating a 2d/3d space, constructing physical things in their head before acting on it). Women are supposedly better at putting themselves into the perspective of other people, both emotionally as well as logically. Or so I've heard. I'm sure there have been studies on these topics though, and I think that's what your paren…

Boys are encouraged to build and to play ball. Girls are encouraged to perform and to play tea. Why would we expect the stereotypical difference to be biological at all? I'm sure there are some differences in tendencies, but I'm not at all sure they'll avoid being swamped by environmental effects, socialization, and individual variation.

> Boys are encouraged to build and to play ball. Girls are encouraged to perform and to play tea. Why would we expect the stereotypical difference to be biological at all? I'm sure there are some differences in tendencies, but I'm not at all sure they'll avoid being swamped by environmental effects, socialization, and individual variation.

Yes, I think individual variation is the key here.

I know quite a few girls that didn't like to do activities things meant for girls and the same for quite a few boys. No matter how much pressure (from parents, teacher and peers) they received they just followed their nature and did whatever they liked more (e.g. the girls played soccer and the boys "played tea"). I have examples of that from my experience both as a child and now a parent and uncle.

Wouldn't this mean that perhaps there is something in the tendencies and predisposition that is not rooted in social coercion?

Often when people think about biological cause they think in terms of what a male or female brains should be, just by virtue of being labeled a male or female biologically (e.g. by some physical quality, including tests involving chromosomes)

But what if you, as an individual just don't match?

Does that make your abilities or tendencies less hereditary or less caused by biology?

The biology of the individuum is what affects the individuum, along with upbringing and literally everything else, including others prejudices!

Personally, a big advantage of this current wave of reverse bigotry is that individuals who would have been just put aside without even giving them a chance now can fare better because society e.g. is being trained at the fact that women can be just as good.

Often, that's what matters. I often hear that the end justifies the means; that if we actually try to have a nuanced conversation about this complex topic we'd just give misogynists and xenophobes a way to pursue their agendas.

And we definitely need more work if we want that people have less bias when confronted with a person of a gender that "doesn't match".

I wonder when will come the time that being fully open, objective and honest will be the most practical way of achieving this goal.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#379
post #7

It’s interesting that the author considers the conceptual framework of microaggressions spurious, while describing his negative experiences as a conservative Googler in terms of what a feminist might describe as microaggressions. To further undermine his own point, he asserts that several harms against conservatives have been caused by these microaggressions. The difference between effective negative feedback and har…

I think the author is implicitly referring to more than simply unpleasant interactions at work.

As someone who is neither American nor conservative, I have to give it to them that there is a level of virulence from some on the left that is far beyond mere microagression, but is not acknowledged as such: there are continuous attempts to ban some speeches on campuses. If a ban fails it is picketed (which is OK), sometimes violently (which is not): speakers may receive death threats, and so can attendees. At first nobody cared because it was happening to far right hate-clowns (not that this would be a good reason to ignore this in thebfirst place), but this has drifted toward anything non-left, and now is even happening to people who do not toe the line, however liberal they may be (cf. the edifying story of Bret Weinstein).

Are there conservatives whining at things that are in fact tiny microagressions, and the hypocrisy is funny? Absolutely. But there is also a legitimately more dangerous phenomenon that is slowly growing, and the worrying part is that it is not being acknowledged by the 'moderate' left. The fact that political crusaders on their side routinely attempt to ban free speech, or send death threats, should be very much a concern to progressives. Instead it is oddly glossed over, and/or lumped in with microagressions or counter-demonstrations.

During Obama's first term people on the left could not understand how the American right could tolerate the crazies from the Tea Party and were looking the other way whenever their insane ideas were uttered. But today we are seeing the very same behaviour on the left when these psychotic episodes pop up. That is not normal. Regressive and authoritarian tendencies should be acknowledged and denounced, regardless of what side of the political spectrum they come from.

Re: The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google

#380
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explicate the last part a little more? I'm interested in understanding the argument but I don't quite follow.

I just commented about this elsewhere, but my take is that some people who previously resisted identity politics finally threw up their hands and decided to accept it, as someone being attacked. So the hypocrisy and contradictions are better understood as protecting their own people from aggression. As in, the substance of the argument is less important than the parties involved. As in, "So women have special interes…

There is that disingenuous aspect to it for sure. But there are true believers as well.

To take racism as an example, if you grew being told that racism means race-based prejudice and it is wrong and that one can be racist against anyone but a white person, you say "that's ridiculous".

The actual idea behind that is that racism is more than simple prejudice and crucially includes a societal power differential between two groups. And that race is a constructed concept and very important because society is structured around it, valid or not.

The pop explanation implies we are engaging in collective punishment against whites and men because of current and historical wrongs. That's wrong, but a lot of people on every side believe it. You almost couldn't have designed a situation better to create a new white nationalist and anti-feminist movement if you tried.

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