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“Let her speak please”

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Re: “Let her speak please”

#371

Post by pron »

andai wrote: post #86

> You may be amazed to hear it, but during this panel session I genuinely did not feel affronted or discriminated by the moderator’s behavior. It seemed more amusing to see him try posing a question in a way that at the same time tried answering it. It’s true that this made the question a bit of a moving target for me (and therefore harder to address coherently), but I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was root…

Sexism is not misogyny. It is not about intent, and certainly not about hurt feelings. It is an objective quality of a reality where women are given less power. A sexist situation either is or isn't. And as power is a social construct -- e.g. people who are treated with respect by others with a high social status, have their own status elevated and vice-versa -- the reality of sexism is determined by the effect on the audience (i.e., by the perception of power).

Whether or not Prof. Hubeny was herself offended, is, of course, a very important interpersonal matter, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether or not the moderator's behavior was sexist. I certainly hope (and assume) that his behavior wasn't misogynistic, but most sexist behaviors aren't, and they have no ill intent behind them. In some ways, that is precisely what sexism is: social behaviors that are ingrained in us so much that we don't notice when do them, that help perpetuate an imbalance of power.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#372

Post by TuringTest »

auggierose wrote: post #237
Ensorceled wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking up in public or confronting people has this effect on many, many people. It is an indication of something that you think explaining a woman's own theories to her in public a "relatively straightforward conversational faux-pas". You should ponder that.

It clearly sounds like sexism (probably non-intentional, but is that better or worse?). On the other hand, the woman who spoke up seems to be an actress working at a theatre, so public speaking is probably not a problem for her.

It's quite different appearing in public for a rehearsed routine as part of your regular work, than making an impromptu public political statement, specially for introvert types.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#373

Post by beaconstudios »

token_throwaway wrote: post #350

Ugh, I watched the video, jesus the host might be the least self-aware person who's ever been asked to host anything. I was unreasonably annoyed listening to him. Anyway I want to share something, made this throwaway account specifically for this. I'm the only female at my company, and a developer to boot. I'm assertive in general, I make sure I'm heard. In fact, I try to be hyper-aware of how much I'm talking in a m…

I think your point about there being people who are out-talked is spot on. It seems to me that both quieter women and quieter men both get talked over by domineering men or women, but that due to men generally being more likely to be domineering, the whole situation skews by gender. I think it's one of those situations that seems sexist on the surface, but when you look into it it's more of a social dynamic that correlates with gender.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#374

Post by carapat_virulat »

MaxfordAndSons wrote: post #336
discombobulate wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or maybe your just a dick and being nice to people in general is a chore. I know that's my problem. Maybe I am a dick. I don't respect people unless they've earned my respect. I try not to be rude. It may seem like that if I'm in a hurry. I am rude if someone interrupts me with bullshit.

> I don't respect people unless they've earned my respect. That's... just wrong. For one thing, everyone deserves a baseline level of respect as per our shared human dignity. Also living in a world where nobody is worth the time of day unless they've gone out of the way to prove themselves respectable just sounds miserable. You should respect everyone unless they've done something to lose your respect.

People deserve politeness, not respect.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#375

Post by lr4444lr »

dating_advice wrote: post #334
lr4444lr wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe she's just so classy that she can see taking the high ground offers stronger rebuke instead of objecting to the slight. Hubeny was not allowed to speak as uninterruptedly as the other panelists. I'm not really too thrilled at Talkington's outburst - it kind of makes the offense about her, not Hubeny, who if she wanted to could have asked Holt to shut up - but the sentiment was warranted if you watch more of…

Hubeny doesn't seem like a person who would tell someone to shut up though, and sexism or not, it's basic politeness to give shy people a bit more room. Certainly after announcing that you now finally want to hear their perspective :/ I doubt that moderator can watch that part and say "yeah, that's good moderation". Just reading the FB post, I was taken aback a little, to be perfectly honest I rolled my eyes at "why…

I didn't mean for her to tell Holt to literally "shut up", but that Hubeny handled it as she want to - which I conclude based on my confidence in her ability and stature to do so and from her follow-up comment - and she was in fact "White Knighted" as what's meant by the term to have jumped in, even if Talkington was female.

Maybe I was raised in a different generation, but disrupting a staged event from the audience unless it's done to prevent clear and present danger is considered rude, and two rude behaviors (Holt's being the first) do not make etiquette, even if comes from a place of warranted indignation. That's what post-commentary media is for. It's not a workable system to praise everyone who gives into their angry instincts in the moment without regard to decorum. That's called childishness.

I'm sure someone will read that as an apology for Holt. Far from it. It's about finding a time and a place to voice one's objections, not losing control and exploiting the attention of a quiet crowd, and then self-styling one's self as a crusader who "created an opening" because one gets a few pats on the back for it, and far from showing any remorse about her timing, saying "please let me not be afraid to do this again ...and again ...and again Because it was scary." Do we really want a one-woman Westboro Baptist Church of anti-sexism disrupting every event that she has decided is "scary"?

Re: “Let her speak please”

#376

Post by vertex-four »

andrepd wrote: post #124
jasonshen wrote: post #11

Edit: I watched the video. The moderator goes on and on and the "let her speak please" sounds very polite. This is a painfully frustrating reminder that women get talked over by men. It's one thing to have one panelist talk over another, but to have the moderator, who is explicitly in charge of facilitating a panel discussion, be the one to drown out a panelist is just unacceptable. Yes, "not all men" do this, but th…

If you watch the rest of the video you will find the moderator imposes himself and cuts off the panellists and talks over them multiple times, seemingly regardless of gender. This makes me strongly inclined to believe that this incident had nothing to do with sexism, but rather with the annoyingly dominant and imposing personality of the moderator. Maybe you think otherwise. Why would you say this incident is a "pain…

Note that behaviours which tend to have disproportionate impact on one gender over another are still sexist, and women often have difficulty interrupting in the way that the men here did.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#377

Post by paulmd »

Knowledge of this social construct (that women are socially expected to be "seen and not heard") is one of the simplest life-hacks for small-group interactions, because once you're mindful of the dynamic it's fairly obvious when someone is getting talked over.

It also applies equally well to other introverts, it's just a good social rule in general. Let people finish their thoughts.

Most times people aren't doing it to be an asshole, they just are focused on a point or are extroverted and are unintentionally dominating the conversation.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#378

Post by jshevek »

discombobulate wrote: post #159

I received a delivery from a black gentleman today. Whilst reaching out for the package I was concerned he may think I'm racist if I wasn't excessively nice to him. I think I may be uncomfortable around minorities for fear of being labelled a racist. I have a similar worry around women. I think becoming racist would solve my concerns -- at least in my own mind. However, it doesn't make any sense to do that: individua…

It's interesting that you mention the problem of "an incorrect model" but not the many other problems with "becoming racist". I think you may have an unusual way of seeing the world. My advice: be basically polite to everyone, and don't worry about other people's wrong assumptions about you.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#379

Post by wfo »

discombobulate wrote: post #208
ssanders82 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus Christ. Here's a thought, treat them as people and not "a black" or "a woman". You don't have to ingratiate yourself in the fear that some random person will think you're a racist. He's just a person going about his day delivering packages. He's got his own worries and concerns and things going on in his mind. "Is becoming a racist the best solution, so I'm able to function more effectively?" I can't tell if yo…

> He's just a person going about his day delivering packages. He's got his own worries and concerns and things going on in his mind. Of course. He could also be vigilantly looking for 'racists'. I really don't know. I'm using the theory of mind to construct a possible world view. My data set is Twitter/HN/reddit, mainly. I would love to treat everyone like a person, but if I do I leave myself vulnerable to accusation…

HN/reddit/twitter is a horrible barometer for how people act in the real world; there is no negative consequence or conflict if you attack someone or accuse someone of something online. Nobody is developing personal friendships on reddit, or posting on HN as part and parcel of what they need to do in order to get through their day.

In real life people are just trying to get through their day, and if you're decent and polite to people they will usually appreciate and reciprocate it. Black people aren't walking around hunting for racists. Nobody is walking around looking to accuse others of things in real life. The guy has a job to do and he wants to do it. He appreciates people who are nice and friendly, and doesn't appreciate people who are nasty and mean, just like anyone with a job.

You are always vulnerable to accusations, no matter what you do, no matter who you talk to. You could be accused of anything at any time. If somebody wants to be a jerk and make your day worse they can do that. But the vast majority of people don't. Walking into an interaction with someone else, almost everyone wants it to be polite and friendly. All you can do is try to do your best to treat everyone like a person and be decent. Don't let toxic Internet culture stop you from developing friendships in the real world. The environment is not hostile, even if it seems like it is because us tech people are extremely online. If something bad happens, shrug it off as the rare one-off crazy event that it is and move on.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#380

Post by travmatt »

jccalhoun wrote: post #229
randomguy23 wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you wear sexism-colored glasses, don't be surprised if everything looks like sexism. That, I think, is what she's getting at. If you're always looking for a slight, always looking for a snide remark, you'll find it. Perception shapes reality.

"If you wear sexism-colored glasses, don't be surprised if everything looks like sexism." and if you wear glasses that block out sexism, don't be surprised if nothing looks like sexism.

It's magical sexism. Everyone agrees in the abstract that sexism must exist, but there are no actual incidents that can be positively attributed to sexism.
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