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On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

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Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#371

Post by thebspatrol »

forkandwait wrote: post #168
krakensden wrote: post #46

As a culture, we really need to stop telling 17 year olds to not worry about money, go to college, and figure something out. There is always someone ready with a romantic appeal to a classical education, and it is so frustrating for me. Wasting four years is a huge cost. Years, decades of debt is a huge cost. Going to college with no plan about money? The costs are assured. Plus, the degrees people are actually getti…

> Wasting four years is a huge cost. At college I: learned calculus, computer programming, advanced mathematics, urban planning, how to communicate like a grown up, and those are just the big topics. I also took acting classes and learned social skills and made lifelong friends. When I graduated, a professor arranged my first professional job which was an order of magnitude better than any blue collar gig I had ever…

Confirmation bias?

This is the same exact trap that people fall into who are successful without formal education. "All people should be expected to have an above average level of agency and intelligence!"

It is unreasonable to expect most people to be self-learners and/or entrepreneurs. It is also unreasonable to suggest that people, who have been brainwashed since elementary school that university is a turn-key solution, should spend so much money on tuition and still not be guaranteed with reasonable accuracy that they can be more than one paycheck away from poverty.

Everyone is supposed to know that there are 10-quick-tips that they need to apply in university to actually make use of learning what they have been told is highly specialized knowledge? Is this really reasonable?

I say this as a self learner with no formal education: it is incredibly unfair that people are trying to "do everything right" and are still in the shitter.

I don't think it's fair to fault people for being average. Higher education in the US is very predatory in many cases. If the economy is doing well and the average individual is still coming out of university in a pretty rough situation, you have a problem.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#372

Post by Clubber »

salesguy222 wrote: post #111
staticelf wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about... offering college for free like the rest of the modern world? Then you would only have to worry about living costs and those loans are pretty small. I could pay off mine in like 4-5 years if I really wanted to. Plus, then people still could get an education even if their parents didn't save up for you. What about as a society/culture you start telling people that the country should offer education for fr…

Nothing is free in life except sunlight. Colleges employ people and build buildings and have ongoing costs. Taxpayer money would need to be used to pay for this, and that money must have continued value, otherwise no amount of money would actually get the job done (see Venezuela) Not everyone learns valuable skills at college. You have to watch out for conflating "learning valuable skills" with "occupying space on a…

That's not true. If it nets a return greater than the costs, then the costs don't "cost" anything.

Think of it this way: do you think having a large college educated population is a net good or a net bad for the US?

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#373

Post by white-flame »

almostApatriot1 wrote: post #253
udkl wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed the point completely. The parent post isn't against college education. It is against spending those years studying 'non-professional' subjects and calls these a waste. This is corroborated by the statement : "Going to college with no plan about money? The costs are assured. (absurd)"

If 'non-professional' courses are taught well, they can be a huge asset. I personally learned quite a bit from the couple in-depth history courses I took because they taught me how to research, how to understand information, and how to understand the context in which information is presented.

Sure, life betterment is great to have. However, with 6 figure debts involved, is it worth bulldozing most people in society through that model, when those skills can also be found elsewhere? There are lots of people out there who simply aren't academically minded, regardless of how otherwise smart they are or aren't.

We shouldn't be seeking to shovel everybody through this model because not everybody is compatible with it, and tons of people cannot afford it and the significant financial investment will be an albatross around their neck. If it weren't such a financial burden, it would make a ton more sense to expose more people to academic skills training more broadly, regardless of attach rate.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#374

Post by kchoudhu »

wmeredith wrote: post #328
learc83 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article from 538 argues that almost 3/4 of the rise in tuition is accounted for by a drop in state support. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-m...

I came here to say this. My wife left the private sector four years ago to work in higher ed. This was a huge epiphany to both of us after she had been there a while and we could see the big picture from the inside. Sure there are a couple other factors at play, but it's small potatoes, comparatively. If you look at the big state schools and the support they receive from the community, they've systematically had thei…

Doesn't explain what's happening in private higher education though.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#376

Post by Baeocystin »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #365
splitrocket wrote: post #362

"Probably the most dangerous thing about college education, at least in my own case, is that it enables my tendency to over-intellectualize stuff, to get lost in abstract arguments inside my head instead of simply paying attention to what's going on right in front of me. Paying attention to what's going on inside me. As I'm sure you guys know by now, it is extremely difficult to stay alert and attentive instead of ge…

In hindsight much of Wallace's work seems like a plea for help. The paragraph you quoted might've been how he wishes he could've ended up.

FWIW, I agree with you. I loved his essays, but the pain behind them has only become clearer with time.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#377

Post by ethbro »

gozur88 wrote: post #347
learc83 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article from 538 argues that almost 3/4 of the rise in tuition is accounted for by a drop in state support. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-m...

That's only public universities, though. How does that explain the corresponding increases at private schools?

I'd assume the two are strongly correlated. If state schools raise their prices, then private schools can stay at the same multiple above them and also raise their prices.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#378

Post by hasenj »

University degrees are absolutely necessary for medicine, law, and STEM fields.

For everything else, going to University makes no sense at all IMO.

Yes, philosophy and linguistics are interesting subjects, but not worth spending tens of thousands of dollars to major in.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#379

Post by learc83 »

gozur88 wrote: post #347
learc83 wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article from 538 argues that almost 3/4 of the rise in tuition is accounted for by a drop in state support. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fancy-dorms-arent-the-m...

That's only public universities, though. How does that explain the corresponding increases at private schools?

First you have to factor in the fact that public schools are a competing good, so when public tuition rises private tuition will as well.

Then you have to realize that tuition increases at private schools are misleading. You have to look at what people are actually paying not what the sticker prices.

At Harvard, for instance, 70% of students receive financial aid, so they are paying $12k a year on average (not the $60k sticker price). That's tuition, fees, and room and board. Harvard has generous financial aid, but it's not unusual among elite schools. Most private schools worth going to are going to have very good financial aid packages.

And even at lower tier private schools most people aren't paying sticker price unless you're talking about for profit institutions.

Re: On average, skipping college and investing tuition costs nets a higher return

#380

Post by dpark »

learc83 wrote: post #306
jimbokun wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I took out 20,000 in loans to go for the last two years after transfering from community college (with no loan for that)." This is the key. If your debt was an order of magnitude larger, would the benefit still be worth it? And if you got a degree that led to a $45k / year job instead of $90k? It's no longer easy to say "going to college" is always a worthwhile investment. It is highly contingent on future earning p…

Very few colleges will leave with student loan debt an order of magnitude greater than $20k. That's about the sticker price for 4 years at Harvard. But 70% of their students receive financial aid. Average student loan debt is around $30k. Very few people have $200k student loan debts. >And if you got a degree that led to a $45k Considering that the vast majority of student loans are public loans, and public loans all…

> Very few colleges will leave with student loan debt an order of magnitude greater than $20k. ... Average student loan debt is around $30k

You must realize these statements are fundamentally at odds. If the average is $30k, then very clearly most colleges will leave you with $20k+ in debt.

The University of Mississippi is an affordable public university that happens to be where I earned my degrees.

They estimate $23,606 for state residents. Per year.

http://finaid.olemiss.edu/cost-of-attendance-2016-2017/

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