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Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

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Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sense of entitlement is a lot higher these days. I grew up in a 900 sqft house with 1 bathroom. Yet all my peers (myself included) seek out homes 2x, 3x or bigger. Same with cars.... my parents bought used, reliable cars. Today we want fancy things. Growing up we had cable tv and a phone line. Probably spent $50/month total. The family cellphone bill, home broadband, various tv services easily top out over $300/m…

This logic is flawed in the sense of completely misunderstanding of "progress". Sure, the 900sqft home argument might be somewhat valid. But in the majority of the situations I've seen, it's the opposite happening. So I'd challenge this one for sure. As for the cable TV and phone line... Yea. There is something called technological progress. We have more services today because that's the world we live in, a connected…

No kidding. The big three expenses in life are home (rent or mortgage), education, and health care. Those three expenses have gone through the roof.

Fancy TV set? Eating out? Smartphone? That stuff isn't why people are poorer these days. Not even close.

Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will be more demand for a short while but a lot of that will also be automated away. Think about a period of 100 years aka your children and grandchildren. Not the coming 3 years as we programmers tend to do. Even if we will have another AI winter after this spring and summer; 100 years gives enough time for another spring and summer. Not only can not everyone do everything; many people cannot learn programming…

Well, it is really hard to think about what is going to happen regading jobs in 100 years. I dont think that human mind is going to be removed from the equation. And if human intervention is, in fact, removed from most of the jobs, then what alternatives to get the basic needs are they going to have? Also, we have to be extremely careful because, even if we are not going to be there, we are paving their destinies now…

I agree we will need the human mind but for less and less jobs. And indeed my point is that we are paving that destiny now and therefor we need to work towards some kind of solution now.

Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#373
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, the implication is that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to think of the government as saving money specifically for the future expenses of retirees. At the level of the federal government, it's a pay-as-you-go system. Current taxes and treasury sales (deficit spending) pay current expenses. (And it's a bit weirder than that because the Fed can retire government debt if it wants to, just by cr…

There's really two (equally valid) ways to look at this, from an accounting point of view. 1) SSA is independent. It has liabilities (the promises made to enrollees), and assets (the trust fund). Liabilities exceed assets in the long run, but until then (currently projected as 2034) the system is fine. The federal government, on the other hand, needs to count those liabilities at full value. This means government deb…

You say "unfunded liability" like it's a bad thing, but it's perfectly normal for the government to promise to do things based on future tax revenue.

The choice here is (1) tax people ahead of time, invest in financial markets for X years, then pay it out, (2) wait until the money is needed and tax it then, (3) spend first, tax later (deficit spending).

In case (1) you'd have no government debt (no U.S. Treasury market) and the government owning a large part of the private sector. In (2) you'd have neither a treasury market nor assets. (This is sort of like how non-profits work.) For (3) you have what we have today, which is a huge number of treasuries available, which everyone depends on as a safe investment.

It's not clear that having $13.6 trillion in treasuries available for investors (including foreign governments) to own is actually a problem. Lots of investors like having a safe investment. There's sure to be some level that's too high, but it's unclear what it is.

> actual savings accounts

This is another way of increasing government intervention in the financial system via owning financial assets. (Presumably there would be rules about which investments are allowed and when they can be withdrawn, so the government would still have a lot of control over this money.)

> not inherent in the concept of a pension system

The difference is that individuals and private pension funds need assets because they don't have a guaranteed source of income and can actually run out of money. The main risk for the U.S. government is Congress deciding to start a financial crisis. But that's politics, not being unable to raise the money.

> legally impossible

It happens all the time. Look up open market operations. The Federal Reserve sent almost $100 billion to the U.S. Treasury last year. [1]

(That's just an aside. Compared to $3200 billion total revenue, it's not that much, and I agree that it would not scale to paying off government debt, or even paying the interest. Still, nothing to sneeze at.)

[1] https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/press/other/201601...

Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#374
post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sense of entitlement is a lot higher these days. I grew up in a 900 sqft house with 1 bathroom. Yet all my peers (myself included) seek out homes 2x, 3x or bigger. Same with cars.... my parents bought used, reliable cars. Today we want fancy things. Growing up we had cable tv and a phone line. Probably spent $50/month total. The family cellphone bill, home broadband, various tv services easily top out over $300/m…

I hear this sentiment expressed a lot, as well as the sentiment that millennials only loaded up on education debt to fuel a 4-year party. In my experience they are both wrong in 90%+ cases and are typically used to invalidate any calls to pay more attention to growing inequality in this country. You are probably noticing the people who go out to eat and have nice cars/nice things much more than the people that sit in…

Agreed. I was merely comparing my situation. I am still (but barely) in my 30's and have a family of 4. And I agree about the SoCal thing (though there are smaller houses to be found, I lived in 1400 sqft in Orange County. But they are building McMansions because that's what people want.

Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#375
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This logic is flawed in the sense of completely misunderstanding of "progress". Sure, the 900sqft home argument might be somewhat valid. But in the majority of the situations I've seen, it's the opposite happening. So I'd challenge this one for sure. As for the cable TV and phone line... Yea. There is something called technological progress. We have more services today because that's the world we live in, a connected…

No kidding. The big three expenses in life are home (rent or mortgage), education, and health care. Those three expenses have gone through the roof. Fancy TV set? Eating out? Smartphone? That stuff isn't why people are poorer these days. Not even close.

But they are. Because those are the difference between saving money per month and not. Disposable income is where we make a choice. We save it or spend it.

Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly feel basic income is a MUST have. I so much believe in it that I WANT the automation to come, I want to see the jobs disappear, I live for the day when robots do all the physical work and a job is optional--and we can pick and choose what we work on because having a roof over our head and food on the table, and healthcare is just a given. We can be entrepreneurs, etc.. I have a ton of app ideas, but I work…

The average adult hunter-gatherer only worked about 22 hours [1] We've advanced so much technologically, yet we're working more than hunter-gatherers were hundreds of thousands of years ago. What are we working towards again? [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201611/in...

> What are we working towards again?

Having a worldwide population of more than 10000 people ?

What I don't get about basic income is the incentives this would bring, which invalidate the whole thing. It's not a Nash equilibrium. What this would create is a huge class of 100% dependent people who have no power, entitlement and are in a very unfair relationship (to their advantage) with the rest of humanity (by current standards).

The productive group will hate the basic income receivers because they "steal" money. And the basic income receivers will hate the productive group because they'll be the ones constantly saying "no you can't have any more", "no we can't do that", "no we can't save your little girl by dedicated 50 medical personnel to just her", "no no no no no no" ... And while I don't believe in Ayn Rand, I do believe that the productive group can leave.

This will bring tensions and hate between the productive side of the population, which will be only a few, and the rest. The government, of course, will be in the pocket of the productive side, because they represent (and control to some extent) the limits of what is realistically/economically possible. The smaller the productive group, the more clout they'll have.

Eventually they will get rid of the basic income receivers.

Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#377
post #345
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So far automation has not resulted in net fewer jobs Yes. Yes it has. Manufacturing has seen hundred of thousands of jobs replaced. And the amount of software developers or maintenance jobs created to make that work doesn't even begin to cover what has been lost. As far as job creation goes, guess you'll have to check that up with the ever growing percentage of unemployment throughout first world countries.

yes there's less manufacturing jobs. There's also less farming jobs, and less clerical jobs, and fewer blacksmiths, cobblers, seamstresses and about a 1,000 other professions too. But the developed world is at near full employment.

And ever since 1990 or so the percentage of the population that is working has dropped. Very slowly at first, then much, much faster since 2008. We're currently at ~5% less employed, relative to total population than before.

Granted, there are more employed persons total, but population is growing faster. Therefore the experience that people keep referring to, that less people have jobs (relative to the total they know), is accurate (not in the Bay Area, though only by the slimmest of margins. It is not far from the truth that employment has been stagnant for coming up on 30 years even there).

In the US 152 million people have a job, for a total of 321.6 million people total, plus about 12 million (wtf) illegal immigrants.

So in the US, today, a little under 46% of the population is employed. 10 years ago that was about 47% and it was over 55% in 1990, about when the decline started. That means, of course, that the economic value a single individual provides today has to be distributed over 1/46%, or 2.1 individuals, whereas it used to be only 1.8.

Since the financial crisis there has, from this perspective, been no recovery. In fact, things continued to become systematically worse since 1990 (but with a huge dive downward in 2008). There is an uptic since middle 2015, but, frankly, that looks a lot more like a blip than a recovery.

Granted, in Europe, the situation is much worse, especially in Southern Europe (but it will be as bad in Northern Europe in a decade or so, as we're getting close to the point that even the massive and very much unsustainable immigration Europe is experiencing cannot keep those countries' labour forces from declining).

And of course, this situation is about half due to baby boomers retiring and half due to people "leaving the labor force" (having 2 family members who have "left the labor force" I feel the scare quotes are justified. They have not left the labor force voluntarily)

This is also disregarding that there has been a massive shift from manufacturing into service jobs. The problem with that is that it's a massive shift from $25/hour unionized, rigid hours, stable jobs for decades, with benefits into $9/hour without benefits, shifting hours, no unions, jobs lasting about 1.5 years, tops. That has happened, over the last 20 years, to close to 20% of the labor force, or over 30 million people.

Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average adult hunter-gatherer only worked about 22 hours [1] We've advanced so much technologically, yet we're working more than hunter-gatherers were hundreds of thousands of years ago. What are we working towards again? [1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201611/in...

> What are we working towards again? Having a worldwide population of more than 10000 people ? What I don't get about basic income is the incentives this would bring, which invalidate the whole thing. It's not a Nash equilibrium. What this would create is a huge class of 100% dependent people who have no power, entitlement and are in a very unfair relationship (to their advantage) with the rest of humanity (by curren…

That's not the case though because THEY are basic income receivers too -- EVERYONE receives even the 1% and elites. That's one thing that makes it better than current welfare. People on welfare KNOW they're 'leeches' and with that comes a stigma of being a trashy person because you can't get enough jobs to supply enough income for your family.

Take away welfare, give everyone the same amount monthly, and it's a citizenship 'right' or contract for being a good citizen of the United States. The only stipulation is you HAVE to have a physical address to mail the checks to -- meaning if you still for some reason want to be homeless even w/ the added income then you're sol. The goal should be 100% end to starvation and homelessness.

On top of that it spurs growth of the economy. When robots do take over and 50% are unemployed -- who will shop at walmart, or amazon? Absolutely nobody. The money will still flow up to the 1% in droves, for the absolute necessities, but eventually even that will drip dry. Give money to the poorer people though and they end up spending 100% of whatever they make usually.

This goes right back to the Walton's most likely, but it increases economic power, and gdp. I also think if you give everyone enough to be across the poverty line, then we could move to a flat SALES tax over income which would have lower tax for legal citizens / etc and more for those who are undocumented, or travelling through the states. Then we could alter and adjust the national sales tax every year or so based on whether we have a surplus or deficit. We can also do away w/ the IRS completely and end more bureacracy.

Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#379
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's really two (equally valid) ways to look at this, from an accounting point of view. 1) SSA is independent. It has liabilities (the promises made to enrollees), and assets (the trust fund). Liabilities exceed assets in the long run, but until then (currently projected as 2034) the system is fine. The federal government, on the other hand, needs to count those liabilities at full value. This means government deb…

You say "unfunded liability" like it's a bad thing, but it's perfectly normal for the government to promise to do things based on future tax revenue. The choice here is (1) tax people ahead of time, invest in financial markets for X years, then pay it out, (2) wait until the money is needed and tax it then, (3) spend first, tax later (deficit spending). In case (1) you'd have no government debt (no U.S. Treasury mark…

I think you're focusing too much on accounting labels, and need to step back and look at the bigger picture. From the point of view of the economy as a whole, the baby boomer generation retiring is extremely expensive. In general, societies need to budget around extremely expensive events like that, eg, deferring other expenses, making sacrifices, saving up in preparation.

You seem to be arguing that, uniquely, the US doesn't need to do this; they can just promise whatever, then borrow all the money cheaply from foreigners. Perhaps so! And I really, really hope you're right (and all the textbooks, financial models, and experts are wrong).

> they don't have a guaranteed source of income and can actually run out of money.

That income is finite, therefore, the US can most certainly "run out of money", hence why the budget is a nasty political fight every single year. Now, it is highly likely that the politics of social security will make it a priority come what may, and thus I'm confident that money can be found for it, but only at the expense of other things. Hopefully none of them end up being important. But the reality of social security is that the national savings rate when the baby boomers were at their most productive was extremely low. (Even right now, the US savings rate is almost half that of the EU-15.)

In a different universe, the US would have saved more during the long post-war boom, and would be in a much better shape to, eg, pay for the boomers retirement and replace our aging infrastructure.

> It happens all the time. Look up open market operations

The Federal Reserve does not (and cannot) retire or forgive the US debt it holds.

Re: Barely Half of 30-Year-Olds in the U.S. Earn More Than Their Parents Did at 30

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What are we working towards again? Having a worldwide population of more than 10000 people ? What I don't get about basic income is the incentives this would bring, which invalidate the whole thing. It's not a Nash equilibrium. What this would create is a huge class of 100% dependent people who have no power, entitlement and are in a very unfair relationship (to their advantage) with the rest of humanity (by curren…

That's not the case though because THEY are basic income receivers too -- EVERYONE receives even the 1% and elites. That's one thing that makes it better than current welfare. People on welfare KNOW they're 'leeches' and with that comes a stigma of being a trashy person because you can't get enough jobs to supply enough income for your family. Take away welfare, give everyone the same amount monthly, and it's a citiz…

Perhaps I chose my words poorly, and we'll call them net-tax-payers and net-tax-receivers instead. The people involved will be pretty aware of which situation they're in.

Besides, total social spending in the US is about 2.5 trillion dollars, or about $650/person/month. That's what basic income would realistically pay (assuming illegal immigrants get nothing, otherwise it'd be $630). The flip side of this would be to kill all government support programs. No more Obamacare, no more social security, no more veteran pensions, nothing like that. All replaced by that pitiful amount.

Good luck paying cancer treatments from that. Hell, good luck paying getting bandaged after a simple scratch from a fall for that amount. If you don't cover medical insurance, then of course it would have to be less (to be exact it would be $360 per month per person).

Now you could say cancer treatments will become cheaper. And sure enough they will. However, even Martin Shkreli worked with a profit margin of around 30%. So ... if you make the treatments more than 30% cheaper (assuming all of pharma is as much of a scumbag as he is, which it isn't, 10% is more common), you can say goodbye to improvements. They won't happen. For quite a few treatments there is an actual reason to be that expensive (e.g. paying for a surgeon's training, 10 years of living, ... and then having them operate, with a staff of 5 each trained for 5 years, in an impeccably clean room, fresh expensive equipment that mostly gets thrown away after one use because it's just too risky otherwise, ... Oh, and don't forget : you replaced most spending with basic income, so you can't just fund that as well. This would have to be funded from that $650/person/month). You'd also have to accept market forces. You live in a town with less than 52 cancer patients per year ? (assuming 1 treatment takes about a week of work) No cancer treatment for you without long traveling, not included, of course, in the price.

You cannot just legislate your way out of economic problems. It doesn't work. When law fights economics, economics wins, and the whole country suffers. See the many attempts at doing it anyway, e.g. in Venezuela most recently. Or to put it another way: basic income will not stop the poor from suffering. Only having them do something useful enough to give them a good life will.

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