U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#371

Post by nickik » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #358

nickik wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its actually not ridiculous at all. There is a lot of study on the idea that the main value of education is not what you actually learn but much more signal that you are dedicated, motivated and have the ability to learn. There is a huge argument going on right now about how much of the value is signal vs actual knowledge you need for the job. There is a lot of evidence that suggest that signal is a huge part of the…

Well if that is the case, and the degree doesn't matter, then the government has no reason to subsidize 200k college degrees. Just provide free community college to everyone for a 10th the price and call it a day.

Why should the provide anything if the argument is true.

If anything this argument would suggest that you should have a private system of education and the government should spend all this money on research grants for things that are interesting, and/or useful.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#372

Post by logfromblammo » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 5:43 PM UTC

hackathonguy wrote: post #165

The system here in Israel is roughly as follows: The gov sponsors universities almost to 100%. The means going to university is almost free for me as a student - about $2500 per year. I can acquire a law degree and become a lawyer for less than $8000. The government is involved in the way the public universities are run so as to keep the subsidies manageable. Total government funding for university education in Israe…

Every Jew I have ever known in the US, to the last individual, has always placed a high value on education. It would seem to be a cultural value--or at least it is among Ashkenazis. So it does not surprise me that Israel has a decent, functional higher education system.

US culture, as a whole, does not value education for its own sake. We value education only as a business. And much of that business is to suck money from the pockets of those who do value education as intrinsically beneficial, and blow it along to those who provide the illusion of education at the lowest operating cost. If a greater proportion of the population valued real learning, the focus would be on making high school graduates more relevant and useful in the modern workforce, rather than using bachelor's degrees as an arbitrary qualification for jobs that clearly do not require them.

If >25% of kids think they need to go to university to get a "good" job--or even to just not be considered a low-status, ignorant loser--it is not the university system that has failed, but the 12-13 years of public education that usually precedes it.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#373

Post by jimmywanger » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 5:44 PM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #350

digler999 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a computer science lab, you need some heavy iron if you're going to be doing heavy algorithms Not for 200 undergrads learning how to bubblesort. For that you need a lab with 50-100 PC's. For grad courses in parallel comp. or AI, you might need a semi-expensive cluster to play around with, but if you want something that just works you could just buy cluster time on AWS, which I'm sure they'd give a discounted ac…

Indeed there seem few disciplines where you really need much equipment for bachelor's degree study. Even in science where it's nice to be able to do stuff in labs, really you can learn pretty much all of it from books.

> Even in science where it's nice to be able to do stuff in labs, really you can learn pretty much all of it from books.

I think most life/physical sciences mandate a lab requirement. I think you can learn the facts from books, but if you want a job in those fields after you graduate with a bachelor's, you'll be spending most of your time in a lab.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#374

Post by sugerman » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 5:51 PM UTC

mercsilv wrote: post #368

anthony_james wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also provides low-income youth an opportunity to get a college degree, and incentivizes kids from low-income communities to stay off the streets and focus on something productive (like sports). Collegiate sports teams are effectively the same as student tutors, student RAs, student librarians, or any other school-sponsored jobs that hire students. One could argue that they're even superior at schools like Alabama…

It provides a small number of low-income youth, specifically football players. Collegiate sports teams are not like other school-sponsored jobs. Student librarians cannot make millions of dollars if they plied their librarian skills on the open market. At least some college football players could. Student librarians don't face high risk of physical injury, disability, or long term health effects as part of their job.…

"most college sports revenue does not get pushed back into general academics."

This is especially true in Alabama's case.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#375

Post by AnimalMuppet » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 5:58 PM UTC

jimmywanger wrote: post #373

tim333 wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed there seem few disciplines where you really need much equipment for bachelor's degree study. Even in science where it's nice to be able to do stuff in labs, really you can learn pretty much all of it from books.

> Even in science where it's nice to be able to do stuff in labs, really you can learn pretty much all of it from books. I think most life/physical sciences mandate a lab requirement. I think you can learn the facts from books, but if you want a job in those fields after you graduate with a bachelor's, you'll be spending most of your time in a lab.

"A couple of months in the laboratory can frequently save a couple hours in the library." - Frank Westheimer

That is, if you don't know what's in the books, you can waste a huge amount of time re-discovering it in the laboratory...

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#376

Post by jazzyk » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 6:07 PM UTC

anthony_james wrote: post #365

jazzyk wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but they are in the wrong business, then. it is a sports business - what does it have to do with academia?

It also provides low-income youth an opportunity to get a college degree, and incentivizes kids from low-income communities to stay off the streets and focus on something productive (like sports). Collegiate sports teams are effectively the same as student tutors, student RAs, student librarians, or any other school-sponsored jobs that hire students. One could argue that they're even superior at schools like Alabama…

Perhaps there are other ways of making money for the university, which are better aligned with the purpose of academia? One such example is cooperation on research projects with the industry (which actually works pretty well), but I am sure there are other ideas.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#377

Post by formula1 » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 6:07 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #244

formula1 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that the problem isn't "if the poor are screwed, bad. If the rich are screwed, ok." I think the problem is eqch individual is pushed to go to college to find a good job which raises demand of college, which raises price. But those good jobs are barely out there for the graduates. And the college institutions didnt guide people down paths of success, instead gave enough freedom to find their own path to…

It's really hard to work through the framing you've created here, where it's supposed that going to college is a requirement to find a good job, the rich are "screwed" by college debt, and the poor are... what? Screwed from multiple directions simultaneously? Further: if college is a necessity for a good job, and that's why students are going to college, and they're leaving college with a mountain of debt and no mean…

Disclaimer : I am a self educated programmer with $0 in debt.

You say this with 20/20 hindsight and a unique perspective on supply and demand. You say this with what sounds anger and resentment towards successful people. I hope you view success and upperclass as a goal, or areat least a believer in independence and hardwork

The mass majority of americans are sheep that are expecting the gov and society to guide them towards a better future. These individuals worked hard for 4, sometimes more, years. What these people are lacking is an understabding of tge employment economy abd supply/demand. Since they dont have mbas its quite understandable to be this naive.

So now we have thousands of intelligent hardworking people who were led to the cloffside to jump. Arguably that is an example of survival of the fittest. Theres only room for cockroaches doing the dirty jobs and allstars doing the big ones. But considering our future depends on the survival and success on understanding the universe, it is in our best interest to ensure these hardworking individuals can be rewarded somehow and that future sheep understand how the world works so that their cliff is one of choice not of ignorance or force.

So your telling me

- tough luck, let them die

Im telling you

- these sheep were simply going down the path they were told

- they were ambitious, smart and hardworking enough to survive 4 years and graduate

- the economy only selects the best and the rest are left to compete in the same income bracket as the lazy, stupid, young, immigrant, unskilled etc.

Is it on the best interest of the united states as a nation to punish ambition? How do we guide people from here?

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#378

Post by stale2002 » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 6:10 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #152

danmaz74 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally get you, but then the question is: do you need to get into a "top" and super-expensive college to get a good education in humanities and abstract art and similar? Because, unless you're rich or get a very good scholarship, I guess that going to that kind of college makes sense only if you plan to pursue a high-paying career.

Backwards. Top colleges have the best need-based financial aid. You rack up enormous debt at average colleges (or by going to a top college when your parents could pay for it but won't).

Look, if you get a full ride at a top school, then obviously you should do it.

Nobody disagrees about that.

That's not the question though. Because apparently students have 1 trillion dollars of debt. So apparently people are NOT receiving full rides to everywhere.

The population we are discuss is this 1 trillion dollars of debt.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#379

Post by orly_bookz » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 6:10 PM UTC

cmdrfred wrote: post #363

orly_bookz wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, they're not valuable in the capitalistic sense. They're valuable if you don't want to live in the world depicted in Brazil (1985), or Neuromancer, or pretty much any cyberpunk dystopia.

Why don't you tell me how much you have donated to "the arts" before you demand that everyone else does so. For context, I give 8% of my humble income to charities that feed the hungry and care for the sick. Is my dollar better spent funding a play that few will ever wish to see?

What? I'm not forcing anyone to do so nor even asking them to.

As far as I'm aware, none of us are allowed to pick and choose what our taxes go to or else I probably would give more to the arts than, say, the military.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#380

Post by jimmywanger » Mon, Nov 21, 2016, 6:16 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #375

jimmywanger wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even in science where it's nice to be able to do stuff in labs, really you can learn pretty much all of it from books. I think most life/physical sciences mandate a lab requirement. I think you can learn the facts from books, but if you want a job in those fields after you graduate with a bachelor's, you'll be spending most of your time in a lab.

"A couple of months in the laboratory can frequently save a couple hours in the library." - Frank Westheimer That is, if you don't know what's in the books, you can waste a huge amount of time re-discovering it in the laboratory...

That is only if you're doing stuff on the cutting edge of basic science.

What you learn in lab classes in college is what's important in most industry and academia. Being careful of cross contamination, religiously keeping up your lab notebook, being able to troubleshoot experiments, keeping things documented and repeatable. That's 99.9% of industry research, not coming up with new reactions or processes.