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The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

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Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#371

Post by badsock »

stephenr wrote: post #249
ars wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the joke, but after having dealt with them, I would personally love it if the government got out of medicare. Just give everyone a voucher and let them buy their own health insurance using it. The amount of paperwork, and details to keep track of and calculate was absolutely unreal. I have BOXES full of paper from medicare, there was so much I could barely keep up. The worst was the arcane and utterly confusing…

Americans always seem to just assume that because their unique way of doing doesn't work, is unworkable and should be abandoned, usually in a "let the corporations fix it" kind of way. - Banking regulations - government backed healthcare - gun control - education system

Seriously, I don't think they realize that most of their problems with government are actually problems with just their government, which from an outsiders perspective seems very poorly run.

They outspend nearly everyone on public health and education and yet still have outcomes in the lower half of the developed world for what those programs are supposed to address. And instead of actually owning up to the poor outcomes and trying to fix them they just blame blacks and latinos for pulling down the average.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#372

Post by zghst »

jessaustin wrote: post #261
lawpoop wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that a problem with all forms of government? That the people in charge can be influenced by false truths?

When there are "people in charge", them being misinformed is the least of one's worries. The bigger problem is that they are very well informed about how their actions affect their own interests.

Actually being misinformed is the top worry. That's why we have intelligence agencies.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#373

Post by thomasahle »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #100

You decide to go on a trip, next you get out a map. This makes perfect sense, and in no way reflects poorly on the British people.

If you decide to jump over a cliff, you really should havr looked at the map first. Just to check how high the fall would be.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#374

Post by Moshe_Silnorin »

zghst wrote: post #368
Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favored election procedure works like this: Every citizen takes a standardized test when they reach the age of majority, preferably Raven's matrices. This test would be used for scholastic and career purposes, aside from government. A representative body of 150 people is randomly selected from those in the top 0.1 percent every N years. The IQ test filters for intelligence, obviously. Random sampling serves as an…

I'm guessing a lot of minorities and immigrants would be left out of representation. Who decides what's on the test, how do we decide that it's fair and not used just to justify that people conform to marketed opinions? How does this test help against those that are disenfranchised and without privilege? How do we challenge those with privilege and power and their positions and goals? This test sounds incredibly dyst…

How could Raven's Matrices be culturally biased: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven%27s_Progressive_Matrices

>How does this test help against those that are disenfranchised and without privilege?

In the best possible way. By providing them with a competent government.

>How do we challenge those with privilege and power and their positions and goals?

Could you expand on that without using the term "privilege."

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#375

Post by mtberatwork »

cookiecaper wrote: post #212
capote wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title is a pretty clear and accurate summary of what's happening.

The title implies that a significant number of British people voted to leave the EU without even knowing what it was, and that their opinion is therefore uninformed and should not be respected. You believe that's a "pretty clear and accurate summary"? Even if you do, you at least recognize the bias and that it's not really fitting for a supposedly-neutral news outlet?

Out of curiosity, what would be a better, non-biased headline then? I kind of agree with capote here, the title does summarize the contents of the article.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#376

Post by sgustard »

rayiner wrote: post #176
rtpg wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly the India comparison is "slightly" exaggerated. British people could vote for European MPs. It's not like the UK was colonised by Europe. There is devolution of sovereignty but you're gonna basically end up with that with the kind of trade pacts the EU demands anyways. Lots of symbolism involved of course.

I'm not saying it's literally as bad as colonization. But the symbolism is useful in showing that the focus on economic impacts is utterly misguided. Democracy isn't about optimizing for economics; it's about people deciding how they want to be governed. "Who should be able to tell me what to do?" That's a sacrosanct decision! It shouldn't be made by bureaucrats and intellectuals looking at the impact on currency pri…

The EU does not "govern" Britain in any meaningful sense, but I agree the "independence" strawman was a strong motivator for the separatist movement.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#377

Post by thomasahle »

hacker42 wrote: post #71

So, can they rejoin? Or will the entire country collapse due to the awkwardness of reversing the earlier decision?

They managed to reverse the Boaty Mac Boatface decision. Maybe they'll leave David Attenborough instead.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#378

Post by ZenoArrow »

Inthenameofmine wrote: post #145
netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

> We haven't figured this shit out yet. Kings anyone? How about the best wrestler gets to be in charge? ideas? As a Swiss citizen, I think the swiss system is very close to perfect in this regard. Sure, emotional and stupid arguments sometimes prevail, but most of the time the people make the perfect decision. Public discourse is most often also very rational, more so than most world parliaments. Irrational arguments…

I'm from the UK, I'd definitely agree that the Swiss model of democracy is better than what we have here.

The only model I'd suggest that may be even better than direct democracy is liquid democracy (which is a close relative of direct democracy), but seeing as no countries have adopted it I'd say the Swiss model is the best example of how an effective democracy functions.

For those interested in learning what liquid democracy is, this is a brief introduction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg0_Vhldz-8

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#379

Post by mikeash »

netcan wrote: post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

I thought it was remarkable that the course of an entire nation can be so greatly changed by a 51.9% victory in a single vote. Seems like such an important change should require a supermajority of some sort. (And, of course, the original choice to join ought to have as well.)

People are fickle and easily divided. For normal elections, we hold them regularly, and that gives people a chance to correct their mistakes or change their minds. But for something like this, there isn't going to be another vote in a few years where people might decide to go back, it's likely to be once and done, at least for decades. The bar for change should be higher when it's like that.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#380

Post by cookiecaper »

fnovd wrote: post #328
lichform wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The disdain and disgust impressed on the elderly in this issue in particular is distressing. Seeing people advocate for selective voting or implying that the younger persons' views are worth more because of their older countrymen's vicinity to expiration is personally upsetting as a self-loathing Millenial.

What if your government voted for a lifetime stipend of $10000/month for everyone over 65, to be paid for by higher taxes on renters, students, and earners? I think there is a breaking point where it is unacceptable to support the wants of an aging population over the future of the young, even by majority vote. However, I don't think the Brexit falls into that category.

Here's the thing: old people don't vote for that kind of thing, at least not if they have children and grandchildren. They've invested decades of heavy personal sacrifice into building a future for their posterity. They're not going to counteract that lifelong goal and knowingly vote for something that will inflict real pain or hindrance on the generations they've parented.

Personally I believe the elderly make much better decisions when voting precisely because they have something that gives their votes far-reaching meaning. Young voters care primarily about getting what they want in the moment; any other interest may be considered out of goodwill, but it is intanigble, whereas people with children and grandchildren truly care about the long-term well-being of the nation, because they know their posterity is going to be living in it, most likely for hundreds of years.

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