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A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

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Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>A Basic Income from Govt comes at a huge price of loss of individual liberty. If someone gives you free stuff, they will expect controls like where you are allowed to spend your money and time. No. The entire point of basic income is that it is unconditional . You get a check from the government at frequent intervals. Unlike food stamps, you can spend the money on whatever you want.

Do you think I can get the check in America and go and spend it outside America?

Are you just looking for a reason to argue? It sure sounds like it. What difference does it make whether the recipient can spend it outside America or not? Does that invalidate enraged_camel's point whatsoever? No, it doesn't.

In case you really care, though, yes, you can. You probably have to convert the currency somewhere along the way, and you may have to pay for a wire transfer, but yes, you can (just like with any other source of US dollars).

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#372

Bershidsky really drops the ball when he makes the following point: "One problem with a universal basic income, of course, is that it will make a country attractive to even more immigrants from poor countries where 550 euros a month looks like a princely amount. Keeping borders open will hardly be an option." What he's missing here is that the UBI is only payed to citizens . If you get rid of the minimum wage (becaus…

Fantastic point, I have to admit I missed the consequences of that, too.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#373

> some politicians in one of the world's most socialist countries, Sweden I almost stopped reading there. Sweden is not socialist, and never has been. Public ownership of production, workers control and management, social equality and a democratic plan of production. Nope, none of those. Just as much privatisation and market forces as other economies. They just chose to fund their welfare state, education, prison ref…

"Socialism" in Western political discourse no longer means owning the means of production. It did, once, but that idea was so obviously discredited during the 20th century that no one takes it seriously anymore. So "socialism" today (usually used with some variant of "democracy") has been repurposed to mean a political ideology that values government social support programs over low taxation.

By Western do you mean US? I have never once heard it used thus in UK and European news and political discussion. Not even by the Tories attempting to discredit some aspect of the discussion. Perhaps the Daily Mail might, but they're bonkers, and have been since inception. :)

You'd probably hear discussion of the Nordic approach use the term "Nordic Model", or rarely "social democracy". They're seeking to remain strictly capitalist but promote more economic security at the same time.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#374
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And borders are just imaginary lines. They are however a based around the underlying reality of geographical, cultural, and political factors. We could make a law that all airplanes must slow down to 50 miles per hour over crowed areas but that doesn't matter if most planes can't fly any slower than 120mph without falling out of the sky. Laws do have to take into account things like physics and economics. The latter…

> Laws do have to take into account things like physics and economics Economics is not even remotely similar to physics in any respect.

Where did I say they were? I called them both "things" I guess.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A minimum wage is moral. It ensure that you and I do not enter into an employment agreement where one side excessively benefits. The government as third party is ensuring we have minimum amount of fairness in our interaction. The right-wing philosophy of wage bargaining is ironically hurting the workers of their countries. The reality is that first-world nations have predatory labor practices because citizens are sys…

> [A minimum wage] ensure[s] that you and I do not enter into an employment agreement where one side excessively benefits. I don't see how that is a goal of minimum wage. People can be underpaid at any pay level, and a lot of jobs just aren't worth very much to the employer. A sweatshop paying pennies an hour for extremely unskilled labor could be a fair wage for that work. Minimum wage serves important functions, bu…

> A sweatshop paying pennies an hour for extremely unskilled labor could be a fair wage for that work.

Sure - in which case said sweatshop probably shouldn't exist. Sorry, but if you need to pay people less than they can live on to stay in business, and it's "not profitable" to replace them with robots, you can damn well go out of business and be replaced with a company that will automate it, allowing humans to do things that actually matter (and I'm not talking about "find less automatable work" here).

That is - in a perfect world, everyone poor would be given enough money to live on and not have to feel guilty about it. If they find a job that they can survive on, they can take it and drop their benefits. What would be immoral would be to force people to take a job that pays less than they can live on to receive benefits - that's outright punishment for not being able to find a job.

We tried punishing people for being poor/unskilled in the UK, it's called the workhouses, and to some degree our Job Centre wants to bring the concept back.

Of course, if you're calling for both a lack of minimum wage and cutting benefits further than they already are in many places... I think you'll find most would call you immoral. "Let them die so that my ideology wins."

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#376
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure we have all had terrible bosses. I have probably had one of the worst bosses you could imagine. Quitting that job was one of the best days of my life. However it still isn't a persons birthright or written anywhere in the constitution that you have only have to work for people you like. If you want to avoid bad bosses you need to learn a skill that makes you highly sought after or be self employed.

Also nothing in the Constitution banning a basic income program.

True. The Constitution doesn't explicitly ban a lot of things.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#377
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know exactly how you're picturing the US, but it's not as dystopian as you seem to think. We do in fact have soup kitchens and volunteer opportunities and people with Down's Syndrome who contribute meaningfully to their communities. (What we don't have a lot of anymore are factories. Go figure.)

Didn't mean to offend anybody, but just by hearing about a lot of mentally ill people being homeless in the US, i got a bad impression. But i may be wrong. And it's not necessary a factory. It's not hard to create awful work environments.

I think you have the right impression, fwiw. We typically view hardship and punishment as primary concerns, rather than rehabilitation - regardless of the underlying cause. In otherwords, we like to punish for drugs, instead of treating the underlying cause for the drug use. We punish crime, rather than educating and empowering the individuals to not feel the need to commit crime acts.

With that said though, mentally ill homeless can be a challenging problem. Many of these ill "fell through the cracks", and even if a program was offered for them, they don't have the capability to seek out said program.

Mental health is a definite dark spot in America.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, what? Employment is a net-negative, the denominator of economic productivity. If we have the same amount of material wealth, it's better to not work as hard to get it. "Increase employment" is targeting the wrong measure.

I think the parent comment was operating on an assumption that "staying busy" has its own benefits for people.

It seems quite an assumption than grown human beings inherently require a supervisor "keeping them busy" for their quality of life.

It's true to a certain extent in current society (speaking from the US anyway) due to our relationship with work: one's job is seen as their value to society, while meanwhile it's very common (I daresay normal) for people to spend their time doing jobs they don't like and don't inherently care about, working just to keep employed. In such a system if someone no longer needs to work, they've "won" the rat race. They no longer have a debt to pay society and they can lie on the beach until they rot. I would not call this a healthy attitude, but it's my sense of how our society feels about work and "leisure". Other systems are possible.

Basic income is one way we could change the equilibrium; a BI high enough to provide a decent quality of life would alter our relationship with work in several ways:

- jobs no one wants to do would have to be made worthwhile. If people had the option of not working in Walmart, you'd have to pay them a whole lot more to keep doing so. On the other hand, you can attack it from the other side and make the low-skill jobs less soul-sucking: even mopping the floors in a huge supermarket wouldn't be so bad if say, the employees own the store, they know each other, and have a sense of community; they are not jumping through the require hoops to receive a paycheck but doing something that needs to be done for an organization that matters to them. I've met a lot of people who could be satisfied washing dishes their whole working lives, if they had a sense of financial security and employers that treated them respectfully. One thing these people have all had in common was they were involved in their workplace as a community. So I don't think unskilled labor is inherently abhorrent to the human psyche, I think a lot of people, given the choice not to, would still do jobs currently considered menial if the other things about doing that kind of work environment didn't suck.

- it tames the specter of Unemployment. To put this in a HN perspective, think of the holy grail for tech startups: Venture Capital. Speculative funding enables people to work on creating something, yet still be Employed while the project is not yet earning significant revenue. There's a cost of course: a lot of the project's profits go to rewarding people whose main role was having the money (and knowing what a potential good idea looks like, to be fair). It's a great system, it really is; what we've created in it is impressive. But I think BI would make things simpler for many startups; bootstrapping becomes potentially much easier than spending half your time chasing funding, when the members of the project already have a secure income and can focus on making something. Of course, it's much more general than tech startups; there are many things not being created (some of which could actually sell very well) because the would-be creators are "earning their livings" (what a concept!).

- more generally, it reduces the need for an employer. Businesses have been becoming increasing agile and fluid as employees become freelancers due to massively decreased friction in the business-to-business markets thanks to the ability to collaborate online, from anywhere in the world. The largest barrier remaining keeping many people from working for themselves is risk; an employer offers steady wages. Even if finding one's own contracts would pay more than doing the company work, volatility is rightfully frightening in our economy.

So yes, having a sense of purpose is very important. But the necessity that that purpose be "following the commands handed down from The Man" is only an artifact of traditional thinking about Life vs Work. I think we would tend to find more, not less, meaning in all the time we spend working under a BI system, since it gives people the power to do work they care about and employers the mandate to make their jobs jobs worth caring about.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#379
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people wouldn't fight the loss of a $1/year/person here or there. I'm not sure. Around here, people fight [EDIT: against] the 1 cent local sales tax add-on that goes to schools (and can only go to schools).

That's because the normal shell game with the "only for schools" taxes often involve adding 1 cent to school budgets with the new tax and subtracting 1 cent of school funding from some existing source.

That's possible. But it's also a tax and people generally fight against them. Cut people's subsidies (in the form of a UBI) and it's a de facto tax. They'll fight it.

Re: A Basic Income Is Smarter Than a Minimum Wage

#380
In addition to universal basic income the government should guarantee a job to anyone who wants to work, which effectively sets a minimum wage[0]

Also, it's stupid to exclude immigrants or to have a "closed border" policy, because more people means more labour and more resources. The economy booms BECAUSE of immigration if handled correctly.

Economics is such a confused profession ... y'all must be embarrassed.

[0] http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=23719

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