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Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

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Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#371

Post by cortesoft »

losteric wrote: post #255
cortesoft wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second question is tricky to answer, so I am going to ignore it. :D For your first question, I always think the key is choice and support for people who make choices that are counter to the norm. Sure, it might be that when given a choice free of social pressures, more women might still choose to be the primary caregiver for children than men will. That is fine, and women and men who make that socially tradition…

Part of my comment was questioning the meaning of support. Are we talking emotional support, and simply being accepting of other's identity? Are we taxing some roles and subsidizing others to normalize economic freedom? What if the market also has inherent preferences that mirror natural preferences? Do we actively recruit youth and try to get them into under-represented roles? What about undesirable roles? I don't k…

I mean both emotional and legal support.

So.. either parent who care gives can get the same leave for that caregiving. Basically, do not write gender specific laws. Write laws based on parenting role, and it can apply to either gender who takes on that role.

I don't think we can try to fix the market demand for the various roles, but we can certainly fix the legal discrepancies.

The emotional support is impossible to legislate, but I think as a society we should not judge negatively men who decide to be the primary child care provider nor judge women who decide to be the breadwinner (although in most families, both parents need to be both... I am a big proponent of day care)

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#372

Post by nickff »

shkkmo wrote: post #349
nickff wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that happier and less stressed people often (but not always) have higher specific productivity (output/hour), but they are usually less productive per week/month/year. I also agree that companies should focus on increasing work output rather than hours worked, and many books have been written on this subject (by people like Deming). Indeed, productivity has increased, though I am sure we are all aware of defi…

> they are usually less productive per week/month/year. You have evidence that this is true? If so, do you have evidence that the lower productivity is caused by (not simply correlated with) people being less stressed and happier? > "you are begging the question by assuming that people want to work less I am not. I said "if we want this". However, I think I would have a much easier time backing up the assertion "peop…

>"You have evidence that this is true? If so, do you have evidence that the lower productivity is caused by (not simply correlated with) people being less stressed and happier?"

I never said low stress and low happiness cause low productivity; I am only saying that less hours means less total work output.

>"I said "if we want this"."

You imply that less work and more play is 'better' work-life balance, which assumes that people want to work less.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#373

Post by malandrew »

jfaucett wrote: post #246
ahoy wrote: post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

"This is in large part because care for family members(children and elderly parents usually) is more often foisted upon women in our society than on men." I disagree. The primary cause is that women can become pregnant - the possibility alone is in most cases enough - in which case they leave the work force for X amount of time. Depending on country, laws, and personal preferences this time period can range from a fe…

In other industries I can see this being a concern, but in tech?

Turnover is so fast in the tech industry, with many employees regardless of gender stay from 1-4 years most of the time AFAICT. Other opportunities and challenges greatly dwarf concerns of pregnancy to the point that I've never once heard one person voice concern over pregnancy but many times heard concern about a candidate likely not sticking around longer than a year (because they have a history of hopping or because we don't think they would be challenged or interested in the work/role).

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#374

Post by RodericDay »

dalke wrote: post #287
RodericDay wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know whether a week a month or a year is suitable, or percentages, or damages. This is not my field. The fundamental idea I'm advancing is that men get to do calculus with their choice ("hmm do I want to stay? or do I better by my kid by working hard now and sending them to prep school?"). It's cool that Sweden makes it attractive for them to pick parenthood, but it's not enough, it's not really in the same b…

Okay, I see your point. I don't believe it's a useful one. What you are saying is that you want the government to fine, imprison, or otherwise punish a woman who, as CEO, signs a business deal three days after she gives birth, yes? Because that's what "mandatory" means. Unless "mandatory" only applies to the father? In which case, why is the father prohibited from signing a business deal three days after the mother g…

This is ridiculous. The policy could be something like "take a month off within a year of your kid being born".

> What you are saying is that you want the government to fine, imprison, or otherwise punish a woman who, as CEO, signs a business deal three days after she gives birth, yes?

Do you sincerely think this is a good post?

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#375

Post by shkkmo »

defen wrote: post #366
shkkmo wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a bad assumption that will mislead you. The gender roles are not baked into our DNA. There are 'baked-in' DNA traits, that have emergently caused cultures to adopt those gender roles in their historical contexts. 'Baked-id' DNA traits are now emergently leading to the abandonment of gender roles in the context of western cultures & economies. Please re-evaluate your assumptions because they are wrong.

What do you make of studies that show monkeys and humans have a similar gender-biased breakdown of toy preferences and juvenile activities?

My first guess would be that those studies are probably poorly executed.

If they were indeed properly double-blinded and used good statistical analysis, I would find that to be and extremely interesting result that would warrant further investigation.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#376

Post by [deleted] »

sanxiyn wrote: post #365
johngalt wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we're forcing women to specialize in child-rearing I see no evidence of any force being applied. Women are free to chose their own relationship types same as men. Exceptionally few choose to be breadwinner supporting a stay at home father. Vastly more choose to be stay at home mom married to an income earning dad.

I actually think this is a mirror image of "companies don't hire women / because there aren't enough qualified women!" discussion. I think there is healthy demand from women to marry a stay at home father, but not enough supply of men who prepared to be a stay at home father from a young age, dreaming about it, excellent at cooking and homemaking, etc. Pipeline needs to be fixed before stay at home fathers can be com…

[deleted]

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#377

Post by oldmanjay »

rosser wrote: post #143
nsxwolf wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly it would lead to discrimination against large families (large these days being anything more than 2 kids). Employers likely won't tolerate someone having 5 kids over a 5-10 year period and taking all that disruptive and expensive leave.

Because people should totally be making major life decisions on the basis of what employers will "tolerate". FFS. We've already ceded enough control over our lives to these companies whose only agenda is to suck people dry, and then find new ways to wring even more out of them. Businesses exist to serve people's needs and interests. People do not exist to serve businesses.

Another interesting way of considering it is that people who exercise their natural right of association make trade offs in doing so that you find repelling. This viewpoint has the benefit of not dehumanizing people who run and work for businesses.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#378

Post by afarrell »

sanxiyn wrote: post #365
johngalt wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we're forcing women to specialize in child-rearing I see no evidence of any force being applied. Women are free to chose their own relationship types same as men. Exceptionally few choose to be breadwinner supporting a stay at home father. Vastly more choose to be stay at home mom married to an income earning dad.

I actually think this is a mirror image of "companies don't hire women / because there aren't enough qualified women!" discussion. I think there is healthy demand from women to marry a stay at home father, but not enough supply of men who prepared to be a stay at home father from a young age, dreaming about it, excellent at cooking and homemaking, etc. Pipeline needs to be fixed before stay at home fathers can be com…

And there is a bit of a game-theoretic problem here. As a guy, I've dreamed about being a father and raising kids since I was young, but for me the path to that always seemed to require getting a well-paying job.

Also, healthy demand in the abstract doesn't mean that there is actually a way for men who really care about being a father to advertise that fact without creeping out potential dates.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#379

Post by orangecat »

RodericDay wrote: post #96
mnx wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a terrible idea. It may seem nice to a person with a lot of disposable income, who can afford for both people in the family to take have a break from their careers, but forcing that on people who are in poor financial condition is just terrible.

Parental leave is paid.

We don't lose the income during parental leave.

You lose the experience, and you're not going to be first in line for a promotion when you come back after 6 months. Unless you want to go full Harrison Bergeron and mandate that the employer isn't allowed to reward Alice for the work she did while Bob was on paternity leave.

Re: Study Finds No Gender Gap in Tech Salaries

#380

Post by malandrew »

caublestone wrote: post #87
ahoy wrote: post #15

This is fairly consistent with other studies. The "77%" number is arrived at by comparing the median wage of full-time male & female employees. It doesn't account for differences in industry, job title, experience, etc. It's super broad. That doesn't mean we should ignore it, but it means we need more granularity. Coming out of uni/grad school, male and female salaries are equal in comparable fields. They depart a fe…

63% of minimum wage workers are women: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/who-are-... Increasing minimum wage would effectively increase the 77% number also.

And unemployment is higher among men.
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