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U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia has died

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia has died

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like it usually takes a month or two for presidents to appoint someone new, and this might be affected by the supreme court's schedule, too. The game theory of this is interesting, for instance, what if Obama nominates someone that is seen as more moderate than someone that Hillary or Sanders would nominate?

I will be shocked if Hillary nomination is more liberal than Obama's. Hillary is a conservative in Democrats clothing currently she is spouting liberal agenda to get the nomination once elected whe will go for conservative options under the umbrella of getting things done.

Warning: Rhetoric and opinion

Hillary, in my opinion, is whatever she needs to be to get her way. My biggest concern with Hillary is that in order to win the high office, she'll have to embrace the progressive mantle. If so, her first appointment would likely be one that leans progressive, if only to ensure that she keeps the peace enough to be re-elected to a second term.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia has died

#372
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't really directed at you, but it seems like a good place to address the crowd. I didn't say the man was a saint or that he was always perfectly intellectually honest all the time. No one is. But I think was a lot more of those things than he often got credit for. Some of you seem to forget that people who have different opinions than you are also people. And as such, they have the right to try to get those o…

Glenn Greenwald: “This demand for respectful silence in the wake of a public figure's death is not just misguided but dangerous. That one should not speak ill of the dead is arguably appropriate when a private person dies, but it is wildly inappropriate for the death of a controversial public figure, particularly one who wielded significant influence and political power.” “...the key point is this: those who admire t…

If you want to attack a person based on his professional life, you are free to do that. But I don't think that's appropriate here. Maybe take it to Reddit or Facebook or Twitter or something?

I'm not demanding that people shut up for all eternity and never criticize the opinions Scalia wrote. In this context, I think the Greenwald quote is a strawman. I've already made it clear that I disagreed with Scalia on many points.

But attacking a person on the day that he died is tasteless no matter what you think of him or her.

And I don't think there's really much to attack Justice Scalia on in terms of his personal life anyway. He was a close personal friend of the Notorious RBG, a devoted husband to one wife, Maureen, and father of 9 children.

Is that propagandistic whitewashing? No. It is not. Some people value it when politicians and judges live the life they assert publicly is the best possible life.

I don't want that life and don't agree that it's the best. But the man put his life where his mouth was.

The idea that a judge, or any Justice is just the sum of their soundbites regarding only the most highly media-ized opinions is truly preposterous.

Yes, I think Scalia came down on the wrong side of Citizens United, and also Obergefell. And there are others that I could cite where I disagree with him.

But there are many I could agree with, like Smith, where he strongly opined that the law needed a clearer use of plain language, and in fact, Scalia was one of the first on the Court to advocate plain English in legislation, contracts, and Court briefs.

I've edited hundreds of hours of video interviews with the Court on the topic of plain English in the realms, and it is clear to me that Scalia was the driving force that literally changed the Court's opinions on acceptable prose.

His influence on the language of the Court alone should win him a medal of some sort. Because this is good for everyone, not just partisans who happened to appeal to his politics.

Legal scholars and attorneys all over the country will be parsing and analyzing his jurisprudence for decades to come. There is no danger that people are going to stop thinking about the ways in which he was right or wrong.

Suggesting that people who ask to give it a day, or parse the decisions instead of the man is not misguided or dangerous. Greenwald is way off base here.

What I'm suggesting is that, like many of us, Justice Scalia was a man acting in good faith, serving his country at one of the highest levels. Regardless of how much you agree or disagree with his decisions, he was a human being and deserves a little respect.

And this is coming from someone who disagreed with him often.

The man was a human being. Perhaps wrong sometimes. Perhaps right sometimes. He does not deserve personal vitriol on the day of his death. Unless he turns out to be Hitler in disguise, I'm not sure he deserves personal attacks at all.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia has died

#373
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is rich, considering the source.

With respect, this appears to me a content-free reply. Greenwald is making a serious argument in the article I quoted from. Are you being dismissive of the argument or (as it would appear) the source, the author. If the latter, maybe you can more fully explain why and also why dismissing the source dismisses the argument.

I'm suggesting that Greenwald has no problems with hagiography when the subjects are politically useful to him.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia has died

#374
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whether people retain their rights when they coordinate as a corporation. You are incorrect. Citizens United was decided based on the notion of corporate personhood -- the notion that corporations themselves have rights as if they are a person. There are very succinct and upheld limitations on individual monetary contribution to campaigns. However CU broke that by giving people the ability to launder political mone…

GP is correct, you are incorrect. It's right there in the SCOTUS decision itself, spelled out clearly and unambiguously.

It's also fairly consistent with past SCOTUS decisions, like the 1957 decision United States vs Auto Workers:

"The principle at stake is not peculiar to unions. It is applicable as well to associations of manufacturers, retail and wholesale trade groups, consumers' leagues, farmers' unions, religious groups, and every other association representing a segment of American life and taking an active part in our political campaigns and discussions .... It is therefore important -- vitally important -- that all channels of communication be open to [all of the above types of associations] during every election, that no point of view be restrained or barred, and that the people have access to the views of every group in the community."

Scalia's comment in CU itself is relevant here:

"The [First] Amendment is written in terms of “speech,” not speakers. Its text offers no foothold for excluding any category of speaker"

In this case, he's referring to the "category" of a corporation, which is referenced in the 1886 decision Pembina Consolidated Silver Mining Co. v. Pennsylvania:

"corporations are merely associations of individuals united for a special purpose"

which parallels the 1830 statement in Providence bank vs Billings by Chief Justice Marshall:

"The great object of an incorporation is to bestow the character and properties of individuality on a collective and changing body of men."

and even further back, to the 1790 case The Rev John Bracken v. The Visitors of Wm & Mary College, which was in essence about the question of whether those running the college were bound by the decisions of its original founders or whether they had the right to, collectively, make changes according to their assessment of how to best carry out the common purpose for which the college existed.

While not directly about speech, the 1819 case Dartmouth College v. Woodward establishes limits on the legislature's ability to modify private contracts, such as the charter that established Dartmouth, and a series of later decisions specified that any modification must not harm shareholders, founders, members, etc.

And Santa Clara County v Southern Pacific Railroad Company (1886) establishes (indirectly) that corporations are entitled to the same type of 14th amendment due-process and equal-protection rights as individuals. Basically, just because people have organized into a group doesn't mean the government can treat them worse than it would if they were not corporately organized.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia has died

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the reputation of the GOP as uniquely obstructive in comparison with previous Congresses is purely a construction of media propaganda I'm pretty sure that's not the case. For example, I know the recent GOP Senators used dramatically more fillibusters than anyone before. Also, I'm pretty that some basic fiscal issues like raising the debt limit weren't politicized before recently. > somehow the world continued to tu…

> I think this is a dangerous belief. Actions, especially by the U.S. Senate, have serious consequences for millions to billions of people. The world merely continuing to turn is not a standard; there are serious problems in the world that need to be addressed well, or human welfare in the U.S. and elsewhere will suffer greatly. Was this also the case when Democrats blocked George W. Bush's judicial nominees for year…

I didn't ask for it both ways. However, as I said, I don't believe the earlier events rise to the level of what the GOP has done recently. If they block a Supreme Court appointment for 11 months it certainly will be unprecendented.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia has died

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No: a legal vote is as defined by Florida election law. As I remember (quite possibly fallaciously) that law held that a vote was to be counted if the intent was clear.

And, contrary to what reporters said, that standard actually wasn't from the section dealing with recounts. It was the standard to be used if a bunch of ballots were damaged before they could be counted by machine; say, in a car accident. Florida law at the time only mentioned recounts in the context an automatic recount that involved putting the ballots back through the same machines a second time. Gore's legal team…

I agree that there should be strict, well-defined standards for which votes count, and the examples you mention shouldn't count.

However, "is readable by a machine" is not a well-defined standard, and is IMO way too strict; it's more than likely that a panel of human readers would all agree on which name is written on a ballot, without it being readable by a machine.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia has died

#377
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just on a purely objective level, isn't "terrible" a reasonable adjective to describe someone who wrote this? “There is no basis in text, tradition, or even in contemporary practice (if that were enough), for finding in the Constitution a right to demand judicial consideration of newly discovered evidence of innocence brought forward after conviction.” Scalia could easily have stated that the Eighth Amendment's prohi…

To go from having written a terrible thing to being a terrible person is an enormous leap, and a catastrophic one. Indeed, if the threshold is that low, then we're all a terrible person.

It's not about having written a terrible thing, it's about believing a terrible thing and upholding it as a principle.

I find this mod action very unfair and completely unsubstantiated.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia has died

#378
post #98
post #43

He didn't actually say that, and I'm not sure how it spread. However, he's still a terrible person, and here's the quote yours spawned from: “There is no basis in text, tradition, or even in contemporary practice (if that were enough), for finding in the Constitution a right to demand judicial consideration of newly discovered evidence of innocence brought forward after conviction.” edit: This was originally in reply…

Did you know him personally, or know someone who knew him personally, or is there some other reason beyond "you profoundly disagreed with him" that would lead you to calling him a "terrible person"?

So Hitler wasn't a terrible person in your opinion?

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia has died

#379
post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, contrary to what reporters said, that standard actually wasn't from the section dealing with recounts. It was the standard to be used if a bunch of ballots were damaged before they could be counted by machine; say, in a car accident. Florida law at the time only mentioned recounts in the context an automatic recount that involved putting the ballots back through the same machines a second time. Gore's legal team…

I agree that there should be strict, well-defined standards for which votes count, and the examples you mention shouldn't count. However, "is readable by a machine" is not a well-defined standard, and is IMO way too strict; it's more than likely that a panel of human readers would all agree on which name is written on a ballot, without it being readable by a machine.

I'm not saying it's a good standard. I am saying that it's a standard that Scalia proposed, and I will concede that it sidesteps a few complications.

But it's also not as rigorous as it should be. Two machines may disagree on how readable a particular ballot is, even if both machines are operating within specified tolerances.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia has died

#380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obama is not a lame duck president until his replacement is nominated and then elected. That happens in November.

That depends on whose definition you use, but this discussion is mostly about precedent; look up the "Thurmond Rule" to see why technical strictness about the term "lame duck" isn't really an issue here.

The Thurmond Rule, which is amorphous and inconsistently applied, only applies when an incumbent has "six months or so" remaining in his term. We are still several months away from that excuse being valid.
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