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“Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

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Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#361
post #102

> The few of us who still remain in San Francisco have no choice but to live in sub-par conditions like mold, windows that don't shut, rodents and countless other issues because there is no other choice, because the rents are so high you can't move so you don't. Yes. But the solution isn't more rent controls. That just increases the gap in price between market-rate apartments and rent-controlled apartments. This make…

Do you think the landlords support supply expansion? Construction limits are neatly equivalent to rent control (in the other direction) for landlords.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#362
post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're missing is that housing is not a normal good. Sure, there is a housing marketplace, which can provide some correction. But houses are also homes. People are born in them. People die in them. They love them, they cherish them, they fight for them. There's a lot of truth in the saying, "Home is where the heart is." What you're missing in that scenario is the large number of people who are displaced not just…

So why not create a lifetime rent control that is tied to the occupancy of the current tenant? One they're gone, it's fair game for anyone at any price and you protect the "right to a home" for the existing resident. That said, I don't think a rental can ever be a home in the way you describe it. The fact that the property is owned by another party means the resident will always be limited in their sense of place dur…

I'd love a simple explanation as to how rent control is any different than any other form of redistribution. Forcing someone to provide access to an asset they've invested in below market prices seems bad to me.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#363
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the girl across the bar holds eye contact with you for a couple of seconds and then looks down and away she wants you to come talk to her. Not everything is always stated in black and white.

If you manage to combine a gender flame war with a rent flame war, you will win high trolling honors.

Hah yes. I almost didn't leave this comment due to tempting that other flame war. But it was the best example I could think of off the top of my head of an unstated but clear communication.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#364

Slightly OT: Does anyone know whether there is there a housing equivalent of the Basic Income movement? Basic Shelter?

Affordable housing is something that would actually be solved by free markets. It's the heavily regulated (almost socialistic) systems when building new homes to new people in a growing city is not allowed (because the old residents don't want their city to grow), so supply is now allowed to meet the demand, when we have these problems.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is essentially a fundamentalist view of property rights. It seems like that for any X, you can find people to assert that X is obviously the most important thing in the world, so anything else doesn't matter. Fundamentalisms are mentally satisfying, because you always have clear answers. But they're practically dangerous, because the ignored concerns don't actually go away. Land, of course, does not work like yo…

Property rights aren't "useful and important." Property rights are the fundamental basis for any other right. What right to life does anyone have if not because they "own" their own life? What right to free speech do they have if they do not "own" their own speech? Thievery doesn't become acceptable because someone makes a compelling case or a pretty argument. Justice doesn't become "fundamentalism" because it won't…

No! Collective ownership is fundamental, and individual property rights are just a convenient legal fiction.

See, I can make sweeping, unsupported assertions, too!

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#366
post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use the same argument for any good or service. Tear something away from a person and you can absolutely traumatize them. It can be a teddy bear for a little kid, a car for an adolescent, your laptop, you get the idea. You can't legislate life into some gentle state. It is what it is. You can, however, smooth out the bumps. Unfortunately, rent control does the exact opposite. It creates stupidity like this. Wh…

> Tear something away from a person and you can absolutely traumatize them. It can be a teddy bear for a little kid, a car for an adolescent, your laptop, you get the idea. I don't understand the point: none of those things are being torn away from people due to market forces.

Then lets say someone's house due to foreclosure from a variable-rate mortgage.

Happened all the time a few years ago, and its the same situation. The interest rates rose, people couldn't afford their mortgage anymore and were forced out.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#367
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arbitrariness isn't the issue. Agreement between various moral codes -- often in harmony, often conflicting -- is what matters. And often that means compromising on some things. You don't appear willing to compromise on what seems like an advocation for absolute property ownership rights.

So how would you compromise on the points I raised? What would you advocate for instead? Stating these openly might help clarify the issue.

One thing in your post really stood out to me:

What other way is there to live than to treat others neither as masters nor slaves, but as trading partners (in love, friendship, mentorship, business)?

You're advocating the opposite of that. As a landlord -- assuming a world with absolute property rights -- you have a significant power advantage over your tenant. A 3x-4x rent increase is not treating your tenant as a "trading partner", it's using your status as landowner to your enrichment and their detriment.

Further up you suggest:

A group that votes to dictate what I can do with my property might be doing it by the letter of the law, but that doesn't make it morally right

Not inherently, no. That's only the case if you believe that the voting-majority group is immoral. That certainly can be the case, but I don't believe it's the case often enough to abandon the idea of democracy.

Personally, I'm definitely in favor of limiting property rights. Property is in general not a fungible "product", and its supply is limited. I consider land to be a public good. The state grants you some property rights, but reserves to place some restrictions on what you can do with the property in the name of the public good. I don't think we have the balance down perfectly yet, but I would absolutely not advocate giving property owners carte blanche to do whatever they want with that property.

It's a matter of drawing the line somewhere: I think you might agree that some restrictions are good. Disallowing renting decisions based on discrimination of protected classes is something we might agree is a good thing (sorry, I don't mean to state your position for you, but I don't know you, so I'm just stating a hope, a guess, as to somewhere we might find common ground). If we can take that as a given, then we can agree that the state restricting property owners to some extent does indeed make sense. And from there it's finding a list of things that it's ok to restrict, and it's not ok to restrict. From this discussion I'd guess that my list of things that it's ok to restrict is a bit longer than yours. And that's ok, but at least it's a starting point from which to find a compromise. The final list has more on it than you want, and less on it than I want.

Business deals and compromise are rarely about making one or the other party (or both) 100% happy. I believe there's "common wisdom" floating around that the best deal is one that both sides are slightly uncomfortable with, and I believe that to be pretty true.

If, on the other hand, you do truly believe in giving property owners absolute power and free reign to do whatever they want with it, then I don't know that we can actually have a productive discussion, because our viewpoints may just be too different. That's unfortunate, but that happens sometimes.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is kind of the difference between owning and renting.

Ask someone who's been evicted by foreclosure. Say, by way of robosigning.

Foreclosure is part of the voluntary agreement you signed with the bank when they loaned you the money to voluntarily purchase the property. It's not government intervention.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#369
post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UP, for crissakes.

This is already happening: the area just north of Bay Bridge looks like Berlin after the wall came down. In my opinion, it has positive feedback and will increase prices even further. Money attracts more money. See New York or Hong Kong- they've built up too. As the economy becomes global, the rise of super expensive cities is inevitable: London, New York, Hong Kong, San Francisco. Oregon has plenty of charming and c…

San Fransisco doesn't build up.

New York City and London are cheaper than San Fransisco. And those two cities have _orders of magnitude_ more peoplel than San. Fran.

So... yeah. The rent is too damn high. Build more houses.

Re: “Your monthly rent .. shall increase from $2145 to $8900”

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UP, for crissakes.

Well, you've got to tear a bunch of stuff down first. And I've read before that the city doesn't want to build up too much because they want to retain some of their character or something.

Then build a bit further away and link the new high rises with high-speed whatevers. Subways/underground/metro/u-bahn whatever you want to call it.

It costs a fuckload of money, sure, but efficient cities are pretty much unimaginable without them (for now at least).

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