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"Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

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Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#361

Post by mcantor »

bronson wrote: post #332
Diederich wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Verbal abuse and direct language are unrelated. Direct language, without verbal abuse: "I am upset and angry that you keep making the same mistakes." That's clearly communicating how he feels, without verbally abusing his audience.

"I am upset and angry that you keep making the same mistakes." No, remember the context: you've already used nice, direct words, and Kai has ignored them multiple times. Now you need to shake Kai's cage. Linus might have gone overboard, but his technique has more chance of success than yours. Also, this is not a sterile corporate environment. The LKML is more like a dive bar than Applebee's and that's the way they li…

This debate exists on a spectrum of gray areas, but I'm pretty sure "you should be retroactively aborted" crosses the line from "shaking someone's cage" to "flagrantly excessive verbal abuse", if for no other reason than it equate's the target's worth as a human being with their skill as a developer, which is obviously not a healthy viewpoint.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#362

Post by mcantor »

meapix wrote: post #357
zimbatm wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is is that each time offensive Linus quotes are used only a handful of them show up ? Over the thousands of emails that have been exchanged in the last fifteen years there surely must exist a bigger variety.

How could a person who has 24 hours a day be: 1. very nice. 2. receiver of whatever shit (including good shit) people send. 3. productive. 4. responsible to make a critical system work. 5. a filter of bad code. 6. ... Without offending anybody?

"Offending" and "verbally abusing" are not the same thing.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#363

Post by forca »

oDot wrote: post #156
forca wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm talking devs and sysadmins. I agree with you that NetBSD is the friendliest of the bunch. Theo de Raadt is a great guy. He gets a bad rap when it's undeserved. What the OBSD guys is very serious stuff. He gets a lot of flak but running an OS and security software project as successfully as he does takes a strong personality. He has that, and in the real, he's a nice, friendly guy. He simply has no tolerance for p…

I've never used BSD before, but from reading FreeBSD's BSD vs Linux [0], I can't see a major difference aside of the license, and the number of distributions available. Can you please explain what made you go on off using BSD/Linux? [0]: https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/explaining-bsd/compa...

I have noticed over the last ten or so years that FreeBSD in particular is ridiculously stable -- far more so than any Linux distro I have tried, including Red Hat, CentOS, and Debian.

I have stable Linux machines running Debian and I have FreeBSD test machines running the same software. FreeBSD uses less resources (exact same HW), tends to be slightly faster, and is arguably easier to admin on a daily basis. Let's not even mention ZFS, which is remarkable in its own right. I'm impressed. I once ran an OpenBSD pf firewall that supported almost 200 users on some seruously underpowered HW. This thing's load average was always ridiculously low. Ditto FreeBSD now. What will cause the Debain machines to peak out sometimes, FreeBSD doesn't seem to notice. Interesting and a bit impressive.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#364

Post by mcantor »

fl0wenol wrote: post #340
endersshadow wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa. Timeout. This isn't political correctness--it's basic human decency. Political correctness is replacing the use of a term for a euphemism. Even putting this in euphemistic terms should be completely unacceptable. If I told somebody at work that they were so stupid, I wasn't sure how they survived childhood, I'd be asked to leave, post haste. I think that the OSS community (and IT community in a broader sense) h…

Contrary to this, I find myself envious of a person who can dress down another in a flagrant and creative way. If I got dissed in such a hyperbolic way from a boss that was paying me, I would leave. In a situation where I've toiled in a position of importance in a project I work on in my free time, and I screwed up, I think I'd be hurt if I was dismissed lightly and without creative ire. I mean, I want to know that i…

I can't imagine using shame as my primary motivator for improving my work.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#365

Post by tetha »

Diederich wrote: post #326
tbrownaw wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Random theory time: People who are harmful to the project, should be removed from the project. If you're not a company but an "open" project that can't fire people, you pretty much have to do this my making them not want to say. So if someone causes enough trouble, just pile on the verbal abuse until they get fed up and leave.

I think this is another false dichotomy. It's quite possible to efficiently limit the damage someone can cause to a project without resorting to verbal abuse. Most simply, refuse to merge their stuff unless it has quality. You don't have to hold their hand; say: "You are making the same mistakes over and over again. Your stuff isn't going to get merged, and we're not going to spend any time explaining to you why."

> and we're not going to spend any time explaining to you why."

"any more time", please. The context should imply this, but some situations require high clarity.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#366

Post by [deleted] »

freehunter wrote: post #249
forca wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please... leave your PC stance at the door. Really. Grown men are never offended at stuff like this...

But what about young men? Or young women? Or grown women? While I don't necessarily agree with pekk that saying "30s and 40s" is ageism or discriminatory at all, saying "[people] are never offended at stuff like this" is exactly the problem the tech community is trying to solve with being more inclusionary of other people and cultures. Yes, people do get offended at offensive remarks. No, not everyone sees them a jok…

[deleted]

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#367

Post by meapix »

I actually see that language as creative and funny, don't say because I'm not the target audience. I forgot the comedian who said that he likes to cross the line then come back to bring some people with him.

I appreciate the work that is being done in open source community, the language part I don't really care much as long as it's to make a point. If you don't like that community, why don't you just fork the kernel and call it whatever you like. Nobody prevents you from doing that then you become the jail keeper and show what you can do to the world.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#368

Post by forgottenpass »

yedava wrote: post #316
tomp wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I don't consider this bad. Sure, it's offensive, but he has quite a good reason to be upset - reading one byte at a time will be really slow. Could he say it in a better way? Obviously. Could you interpret his words in a less literal way? Obviously. I don't know Linus, but he seems a good, selfless guy, with the best intentions at heart. If he's not politically correct, who the fuck cares? Sometime…

Whenever I hear complaints about Political Correctness, I'm reminded of this: > Disdain for "political correctness" is often positioned as a concern that some important truth is not being spoken for fear of offending someone. But that concern is nothing but smoke and mirrors. To invoke "political correctness" is really to be concerned about loss of power and privilege. It is about disappointment that some "ism" that…

* Whenever I hear complaints about Political Correctness, I'm reminded of this:*

I really hope you aren't. Posts that recast and interpret someone else's opinions like this are toxic to any political discussion. The framing makes the topic into an caricature you can easily oppose all while whispering in your ear "this is what's _REALLY_ going on."

Maybe you don't think this interpretation is wrong. Maybe you think I (like they) just can't realize or admit it's right. Maybe you don't think it's such a bad thing if this armchair psychologist is just a bit wrong. But have you ever seen someone post about how stupid social justice is when the thing they're trash talking isn't social justice at all? Have you never had someone disagree with you assert that you believe something you don't? Posts like that are exactly how it happens.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#369

Post by forca »

belorn wrote: post #128
forca wrote: post #17

I agree somewhat with Lennart. The Libre/OSS community is full of egotistical asshats -- generally western and in their 30s and 40s. What's funny, though, is that not all camps in the community are that bad. The Linux camp has deteriorated in recent years -- I've noticed it myself on several occasions. The BSD camps don't suffer near as much from the nonsense that occurs on the Linux side. I think there are several r…

You tried to open a flame war over licenses in discussion about hostile attitude in the open source community. Great work. "The GPL license is arguably better IMO as well. Quite a few BSD devs, both kernel and userland, are grossly immature and tend to be vocal copy-left opponents for the sake of being vocal."

No flame war intended; just calling out what I've seen in my work in the past.

Re: "Open Source is awful in many ways, and people should be aware of this"

#370

Post by Diederich »

tetha wrote: post #365
Diederich wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is another false dichotomy. It's quite possible to efficiently limit the damage someone can cause to a project without resorting to verbal abuse. Most simply, refuse to merge their stuff unless it has quality. You don't have to hold their hand; say: "You are making the same mistakes over and over again. Your stuff isn't going to get merged, and we're not going to spend any time explaining to you why."

> and we're not going to spend any time explaining to you why." "any more time", please. The context should imply this, but some situations require high clarity.

I don't think 'high clarity' requires the use of verbally abusive language.
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