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Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

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Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#361
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's been attempted. Many municipals have tried to roll out their own broadband to be sued by the industry to prevent it. Although eminent domain is an interesting argument, not that I agree with it necessarily.

> Although eminent domain is an interesting argument, not that I agree with it necessarily. Why? Public funding and a government-granted monopoly were the reasons local ILECs have the power they do; they'd be given fair value for their gear in the ground.

Well, my feeling on the matter stems from the fact that eminent domain is an incredibly powerful tool that can potentially disrupt a large number of people's lives. Like all such powerful government tools it is easily abused. It is especially terrible when it is abused because it essentially, and legally, removes people's property rights. Many think property rights are a cornerstone to personal freedom.

Essentially, eminent domain should be used as a last resort in all cases. No matter how trivial or non-invasive to the public the seizure may seem. If a local municipal moves in to seize something like that, any other company may think twice of implementing a similar service in the future. If they perform the seizure and it works out, what else could they seize for the greater good?

I would rather they remove the government-granted monopoly to open competition and perform an audit to make sure the company fulfilled their part of the bargain in receiving public funds. If they fail the audit, request the money back.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#363

There is an interesting unbalance because Comcast has so much leverage by owning the last mile, they can push around Tier 1 providers. I'd like to fix that, mostly by creating a public policy around municipally owned Layer 1 infrastructure between customers in their cities and a city exchange building. Conceptually it would be no different than the city owning the sewers and outsourcing the water treatment plant to a…

This is how it should probably be done if we were starting from scratch. A system like the one you describe would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $300-500 billion; which isn't completely insane as far as national infrastructure projects go. The problem is that we're not starting from scratch. It's a lot harder for the government to justify that expense when there are a number of viable privately-owned alternati…

Let me just point out that $500 billion is larger than the entire yearly non-defense discretionary budget of the US, itself the largest discretionary budget of any government.

>But criley2, how do we spend trillions if $500B is larger than our budget

Discretionary budget, not mandatory spending like social security or welfare.

$500B is an enormous sum of money, it truly is.

$500B/10Y would still be an incredibly large sum subject to an incredible amount of corruption and graft...

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#364
post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a similar model to Australia's endangered National Broadband Network. The government owned NBNCo lays the fibres to customers' homes, then ISPs lease bandwidth to service their customers. It seems to be facing the same issues that you describe, with some politicians being unable to stomach publicly owned infrastructure.

God no! That is not how Labor's NBN works, nor how it is priced. Simon Hackett, the founder and former owner of Internode did a very good job of explaining by NBN Co.'s pricing model is retarded and why the network build is dumb [1]. In brief, the wholesale pricing model precludes new ISPs entering the market, and Labor's NBN is not dark fibre to the premises, again see [1], along with Simon's other talks on the subj…

That linked preso was terribly salesy. He did a poor job of actually backing up some of his graphs with data.

He has a point when he talks about NBNCo's CPE device offering. But that's not really a big deal. Most of his griping seems like nitpicking. Te point of the NBN is getting fiber in the ground that no one company owns. Once that is done all of his other complaints can be dealt with. We can argue incessently over what kind of CPE device to deploy, and change it, without altering the fact that NBNCo now has the fiber in the ground.

He also has a point about the number of POIs that NBN will require the wholesalers to interface with. But again, this is missing the forest for the trees.

>Frankly, the less of Labor's NBN that gets built the better.

Simon doesn't make that argument. His argument is to do it differently, which is completely different than not do it. In the Q&A he makes suggestions to do some parts of the NBN differently, but it's clear he is generally in favor of it.

The NBN is about getting non-monopolized fiber in the ground. Once that's done everything else about it can be changed to suit his or your desires.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#365

Would be very interesting to see what happened if the big CDN providers just depeered Comcast for 24 hours. Would certainly cost Comcast a fair amount in customer support calls, bad publicity, and properly bring the debate to the general public.

This would be an unmitigated disaster. Everyone would call Comcast, Comcast would tell the story their way, and things would be even worse than they are now. They'd probably get on national nightly news talking about how their "partners" "unfairly" "cut them off from the Internet". It would be pretty interesting to watch the spin machine in action, though. 100% pure PR spin.

Also, don't forget that Comcast now owns NBC. :-)

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that wireless is a shared medium. If you have a certain amount of spectrum, you can transfer a finite number of bits per second using it, and that capacity is shared between all devices in range. The bandwidth available in a certain chunk of spectrum is a physical limit. There is no way to expand capacity other than by allocating more spectrum, and radio spectrum is extremely scarce. So the more users…

It all depends how much bandwidth you need for a given use case. For most use cases other than video, existing wireless technologies are sufficient and will only continue to improve as things like beam shaping and micro cells become more prevalent. Wireless is easier to deploy and as its use grows, more spectrum will likely open up. Free markets have the benefit of deploying scarce resources where they are most in de…

> For most use cases other than video, existing wireless technologies are sufficient and will only continue to improve as things like beam shaping and micro cells become more prevalent.

Excluding today's most demanding use case doesn't get you anywhere. If you need a wired connection for that then you need a wired connection. The installed base of smartphones and tablets is still growing significantly and that's going to eat any technological improvements you can make to cellular and then some. Meanwhile people still want to be able to watch Netflix on a tablet from the back of a minivan, and to be able to make that happen at scale you're going to have to remove as much other traffic from the cellular network as possible.

> Wireless is easier to deploy and as its use grows, more spectrum will likely open up. Free markets have the benefit of deploying scarce resources where they are most in demand.

Free markets can't change the laws of physics. Allocating more spectrum is a linear increase. 20% more spectrum costs billions of dollars and only makes it 20% faster. The market solution when there is a high demand scarce resource is to shift usage to a resource that isn't as scarce for any use case where the alternative resource is viable. There is a reason one of the first things you already do when you get to a friend's house for the first time is ask for the WiFi password, and it's not because there is no cellular coverage.

> The biggest advantage of a wired home broadband connection over a wireless one that I see is the ability to stream video.

The advantage is that it allows you to transfer more bits cheaply. Today's most prevalent use case for that is streaming video, sure. It's hardly the only one. Anything that requires uploading or downloading large amounts of data is a bad fit for cellular. And we can't predict what interesting applications will become commonplace once the typical connection is 1Gbps.

> A wired connection has a lot of disadvantages: it's useless outside the home and the infrastructure is significantly more expensive.

The infrastructure is significantly more expensive, once. The cost to maintain fiber is not materially different than the cost to maintain copper. And it's not useless outside the home when everybody else has one too. If you're at home you have WiFi. At work? WiFi. Friend's house? Coffee house? Hotel? WiFi. About the only fixed places there is no WiFi are the places there is also no cellular, like the middle of the woods.

Using cellular when you're in a building with WiFi doesn't make sense. Using cellular when you're on the move does -- and that's the use case we should be preserving the scarce wireless spectrum for, by using wired connections everywhere else.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#367
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-trust laws are not ideal, though. They effectively act as thresholds or hard lower limits on allowed competition, but they don't directly address the economies of scale and barriers to entry that push the market toward a monopoly state.

Agreed. I have been looking now for a while for a rigorous treatment of how to deal with monopoly-related problems (hopefully this would be a summary of the current consensus among economists), are you by chance familiar with one?

Haha, no, I'm not. I only have a 1-year undergrad intro econ course plus a mathematics degree and my own intuition. I don't think I've actually read any primary literature in the econ field, only my textbook (and not much of that, either!).

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#368
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an unlimited system, a customer which uses 10GB/month grosses the company the same amount as a customer who uses 1TB/month. Going to a metered system, people who use more bandwidth are charged more. Technically ISPs don't pay for bandwidth, but for a 'x' GBps link. But our electric companies do the same, they pay for 'x' Kw/h (a power plant can only output so much electricity per hour). >...make illegal the munici…

> Thats a very hard peice of legislation to pass. That may be so. But all of Europe manage to go from monopoly telcos to a system with guaranteed access for ISPs to the last mile. > Moving to a metered system gets rid of most of the ISPs arguments against net neutrality.. In my experience, from having run an ISP: It also massively curtails usage, to the extent that it is a net negative for the ISPs because users beco…

>It also massively curtails usage, to the extent that it is a net negative for the ISPs

I think that's the reason why Comcast wants to do the 300GB 'unlimited' with a $10/50GB overage charge. As they get the best of both worlds.

The issue with having a 'hybrid' plan is that to Comcast's finance department they still view it as a fixed gross per customer. Where-as with metered usage, the finance department would hopefully realize that the bigger the pipes the greater the potential for $$$.

In regards to peering, Comcast currently has no incentive to upgrade there peering exchange points. But in a metered system, they have a lot of money to gain for upgrading the exchange points. Giving level 3 and Comcast incentives to upgrade peering exchanges. (Today its only Level 3 who benefits).

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#369
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Level3 can't give Netflix what it promised Netflix it would deliver, maybe Netflix should use a different CDN. Other CDNs aren't having this problem, because they're willing to work with the ISPs.

> Other CDNs aren't having this problem, because they're willing to work with the ISPs. Do we know this?

You asked this question in like 3 places, but yes, if you read the blog post written by Level3, you'll see them mention that other backbone providers are making deals with the ISPs, but that they're refusing to.

Re: Level3 is without peer, now what to do?

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God no! That is not how Labor's NBN works, nor how it is priced. Simon Hackett, the founder and former owner of Internode did a very good job of explaining by NBN Co.'s pricing model is retarded and why the network build is dumb [1]. In brief, the wholesale pricing model precludes new ISPs entering the market, and Labor's NBN is not dark fibre to the premises, again see [1], along with Simon's other talks on the subj…

That linked preso was terribly salesy. He did a poor job of actually backing up some of his graphs with data. He has a point when he talks about NBNCo's CPE device offering. But that's not really a big deal. Most of his griping seems like nitpicking. Te point of the NBN is getting fiber in the ground that no one company owns. Once that is done all of his other complaints can be dealt with. We can argue incessently ov…

> That linked preso was terribly salesy.

Yeah, I get where you're coming from. I think by the time Simon gave that particular presentation he'd been saying the same stuff on a regular basis for a good two years, so it started to sound really rehearsed. Have a look at some of his older videos eg. [1] Although, that is, to a major degree, just how Simon sounds when he talks.

I don't think you fully understand the implications of what NBN Co is building.

> Te point of the NBN is getting fiber in the ground that no one company owns.

This is exactly what is not happening. Labor's NBN Co is (was?) building another Telstra-like monopoly. The one company that owns the fibre is NBN Co. which will, like almost every other government asset, be sold at a loss to a private company. And, like Telstra, it will become notorious for dragging its feet when it comes to appropriately pricing the wholesale service.

> He also has a point about the number of POIs that NBN will require the wholesalers to interface with. But again, this is missing the forest for the trees.

While you (I don't mean you personally, I mean 'you' in the general sense of the Australian voter) are focus on 'fibre regardless of costs' then yes, sure, you're correct.

> Simon doesn't make that argument.

You're right, he doesn't. That is my argument. And, like I always said from the very first first announcement of the NBN "well that will take Labor winning the next 6 elections".

> The NBN is about getting non-monopolized fiber in the ground. Once that's done everything else about it can be changed to suit his or your desires.

Change. Yes, just like Telstra. In fact, the scenario with Telstra is better than NBN Co. At least Telstra has been forced to resell ULL (Unbundled Local Loop, ie. vacant copper) to ISPs. NBN Co. is being built from the ground up to not be like that.

WHY!

I'll take Dark fibre to the premises, or no fibre thanks.

The creation of NBN Co. even resulted in the enactment of new legislation that prohibits competing fibre network builds. Hell, NBN Co. is taking TPG to court over TPGs pre-existing fibre network! [2] This is decided not the role NBN Co. could be playing.

(edit: clarity)

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMeYr2_rJmo 2. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/nbn-turns-the-heat-...

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