Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#361

Post by vehementi » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 11:49 PM UTC

brigade wrote: post #356

vehementi wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Server can't be reached" gives critical, actionable information. Error messages can be searched for! If you can't search for an error message, you can't use a computer.

Or you can't search for it because you can't reach the internet. Anyway, if you can definitively figure out which of the following is true from that message without the use of additional diagnostic utilities, well... (yes I have personally seen all of these (except exactly 12 which I've seen variants of but worded it the same way as the article)) 1. Your cable modem can't find a signal, because of weather conditions…

Again, you can search with mobile, or someone else's mobile, someone else's laptop, etc.

I appreciate your point regarding the multitude of possibilities for a server error, but remember what we're talking about. The user did not even attempt to read the error message, did not know what it said, and kept retrying thinking things would change. He didn't take some next step to try to diagnose potential connection problems (e.g. check for ethernet cable), he just threw his hands in the air, said it doesn't work, and ran to IT. He can't use computers.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#362

Post by nasmorn » Fri, Aug 09, 2013, 11:50 PM UTC

300bps wrote: post #309

brandon272 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I detect a lot of resentment in your post that could all be avoided by just saying "No, sorry, I can't fix your computer."

I detect a lot of resentment in your post that could all be avoided by just saying "No, sorry, I can't fix your computer." So I should lie to them? Because that's what I would be doing. The truth is that I can fix their computer. To make that a truthful statement it would have to be, "No, sorry, I won't fix your computer." Has a bit of a different ring to it, doesn't it?

I always say since they basically want me to work for them I need to charge them like any other client. Since computer support is not my forte it would probably cost a lot.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#363

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 12:20 AM UTC

300bps wrote: post #89

otakucode wrote: post #26

The problem isn't that these people can't use computers. It's that they can't THINK. They do not understand what critical thinking is, or how it works. They do not know how to approach problems or explore solutions. They don't know how to do it with their computer... or their car, or their vacuuming robot, or their television, or their oven or their relationships or any thing in their life. They don't understand why…

The problem isn't that these people can't use computers. It's that they can't THINK. I find it's more specific than and not as serious as that. I got my first computer in 1982, first modem in 1985 (hence my username). I find that people who proudly state how not-technical they are actually purposely turn their brain off around computers. It's not that they can't think. They can and often do around non-technical thing…

It's partly partly true though. People aren't used to think about `network of things`. They will try to fiddle with the first layer they perceive and they will loose faith and motivation. Here's how they end up looking 'not being able to think'.

But on the other hand, computers and programs aren't build to be understood or fully manipulated with ease. It's often an ad-hoc mess of bad stateful abstractions that break very easily if you don't do things in some arbitrary order.

I'm on Alan Kay side when he thinks that computers programs are far too large accretions that could and should be reduced through better infrastructure. (his recent work was on an entire fully OOP desktop system in ~100Kloc instead of 100Mloc). In my mind giving this to people could lead to a better understanding and less psychological knots.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#364

Post by cupcake-unicorn » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 12:38 AM UTC

This article was helpful for me. Why? Because I guess I "know" this in theory, but I surround myself with very intelligent people, mostly who are in the field of IT, and I don't so much hang out with younger people from the age of 20-25.

I grew up with computers, and unlike now, when things were starting out, you actually had to be a little bit clever to use one. I rolled my eyes at my dad as a kid when for fun he typed "DEL ." at the C: prompt of his new DOS machine. Doing command line stuff like that, while not at by any means an advanced level of computer sophistication, is a far cry from people growing up with extremely user friendly things like Ipads, only having to press a few buttons to get things done, and very idiot proof.

But at the same time, since it comes so naturally to me, I do tend to forget that the skills I have are that technical or unusual. Reinstalling Windows? Installing Linux? Putting together a computer from scratch? I mean..even if you don't know how to do it, you can Google it. But then I get snapped back into reality, like when my parents call me up and say they hired their friend's son to fix their PC, a "computer whiz", who obviously about a minute or so into the conversation has no real or deep understanding about computers whatsoever - probably just some gamer or something.

It's awful too, since I'm a woman and I see other non tech savvy women perpetuating that sterotype. I went to get my hair cut, and one of the employees was trying to get a Netbook to work. "This thing is so slow. It doesn't even have any RAM!" she claimed, loudly. Since I was waiting on the stylist, I told her that I could take a look. "No thanks," she said while barley looking my way, "My husband's in IT, so I'll just call him." I then had to to listen to an excruciating phone call while she called up her husband which made it pretty clear also that the husband also "can't use a computer".

Sigh.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#365

Post by MarcScott » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 12:51 AM UTC

MarcScott wrote: post #10

Phargo wrote: post #6

Wow... "TL;DR? Why not just go watch another five second video of a kitten with it’s head in a toilet roll, or a 140 character description of a meal your friend just stuffed in their mouth. “num num”. This blog post is not for you." Snarky enough? If you start out like that I've already made the decision that you're over opinionated and probably prone to dramatic exaggeration.

Yes. I am over opinionated and prone to dramatic exaggeration. Point taken though, and I'll remove the TL;DR.

Okay, by popular consent the TL:DR? remains as is. So do the punctuation errors. I'll leave the post alone. Either you like the content or hate the content. I admit the spelling and punctuation are not great, but then again I didn't expect anyone to actually read this.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#366

Post by Hansi » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 1:02 AM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #122

brandon272 wrote: post #64

I found that the author came across as extraordinarily condescending with the whole "let's get the president on the phone" thing. I'm sure that the woman he was dealing with understood full well that the "Internet" itself was probably fine and that it was her configuration that was the problem. Though I guess he took the holier-than-thou approach because she didn't use the precise terminology that he would have prefe…

Nick Burns: http://vimeo.com/24762526

This is exactly what I thought of when reading that post.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#367

Post by Houshalter » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 1:02 AM UTC

I don't really think it's as big of a deal as the author thinks it is. Computer systems are often extremely complicated and confusing. Yes you might not think so because you are familiar with them, but things that seem obvious to you through experience do not to everyone else.

Anything that makes them simpler, easier, or cuts through the confusion is a good thing. My analogy would be how most programmers don't work with machine code. Even if they are familiar with it they probably don't have any experience. And you get any more low level than that, like the cpu design.

Specialization is a good thing. It's how we built modern civilization and how we are able to build computers in the first place. For most people there isn't really any benefit of learning the details of their operating system, if they don't have to deal with it in the first place because it's well designed, isn't that a good thing?

>I have one question for these policy makers:

>Without reference to Wikipedia, can you tell me what the difference is between The Internet, The World Wide Web, a web-browser and a search engine?

>If you can’t, then you have no right to be making decisions that affect my use of these technologies. Try it out. Do your friends know the difference? Do you?

Legislators also aren't familiar with the vast majority of other industries they regulate. Stupid regulations aren't unique to technology. You just happen to know enough to see problems with them.

>We should be teaching kids not to install malware, rather than locking down machines so that it’s physically impossible.

What's wrong with more secure systems? I mean I don't think we should lock out general purpose apps entirely, but it's great that people can generally trust random apps, and that it's much harder to create a virus.

And for what it's worth, computercraft for minecraft is a great way of introducing programming.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#368

Post by BruceIV » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 1:09 AM UTC

jamesaguilar wrote: post #193

wonderyak wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And thats where it falls apart. If he were more honest with himself he'd say something like 'I know I can go online or pick up a manual and figure anything about my car that I'd want to.' Letting it remain a mystery is just perpetuating the ignorance people seem to cling to like a life raft. Figuring things out is fun and you learn new skills.

There are an almost unlimited number of things to figure out in modern life. IMO, it's not reasonable to judge someone for selecting which ones are most important to them. The important thing is to know it is possible if you had to -- it's just persistence. That said, if you wanted to pick one thing, computers probably have the lowest cost-to-benefit ratio of figuring stuff out, at least at the proxy-settings level o…

Same - I'm not super car-literate, but I was able to refill wiper fluid before I went on a long trip, and if it came down to it I could change the tire (I at least know where the jack is, and roughly where it goes under the car). But I don't change my own oil, because I can't really do it cheaper than the shop.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#369

Post by BruceIV » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 1:20 AM UTC

GhotiFish wrote: post #269

robbles wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference here is that we're willing to pay those vehicular technicians a realistic amount of money for their expertise, and nobody expects a mechanic to fix your car for for free, even if it'll "only take a second". I also have a healthy respect for their skills, and if my car breaks down, I'd be embarrassed about my ignorance and inability to fix or diagnose the problem (and I suspect most people would too).

Sorry your interactions have being so rough. I give tech support to my family for free, and people who are looking for a quick fix from me are often willing to pay for the privilege. I've heard stories like this quiet a bit though, but I don't think it is a universal attitude. and I will grant you, the situations are not entirely symmetric.

Yeah - I never want to get paid to do tech support - I generally find it either so trivial it's not worth charging for, or so hair-pullingly frustrating that no reasonable amount of money would be enough.

Re: Kids can't use computers, and why it should worry you

#370

Post by bambax » Sat, Aug 10, 2013, 1:22 AM UTC

MarcScott wrote: post #40

bambax wrote: post #32

> a kitten with it’s head in a toilet roll its head If your plan is to insult readers before they even start to read your rant, can you at least make an effort to spell your insults correctly?

Oops. I'm sure you'll find lots of other grammar and spelling errors.

The problem was not so much with spelling as it was with the aggressiveness of this intro.

Beyond the aggressiveness, the idea that TL;DR is bad or impossible is disputable. Everything can be TL;DRed, as long as it has a point. And in any case it's bad practice to "bury the lead".