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"Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

bugzilla.mozilla.org

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Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#361

Post by exodust »

Isofarro wrote: post #337
exodust wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "failure to handle disabled js gracefully." How are we meant to handle AJAX requests that fetch data to display on the web page that allows users to achieve the goal of their visit? Without JS enabled, that part of the page will be blank, and many modern, rich content-heavy sites now pull data from different places on the fly, it's just how it is. Is your idea of gracefully handling this situation putting a noscrip…

> How are we meant to handle AJAX requests that fetch data to display on the web page that allows users to achieve the goal of their visit? Make the request from your server, parse it on your server, template it on your server, and deliver the HTML result to your user. > Without JS enabled, that part of the page will be blank, and many modern, rich content-heavy sites now pull data from different places on the fly, i…

Sounds cool, but speaking from recent experience, the option to make the request from the server, parse it on the server, template it and deliver it was not available to me for the job I was asked to do (as a frontend developer).

Sometimes it comes down to doing it with client side AJAX, or not doing it at all.

With developers learning to do their jobs properly, sure when the luxury of time and starting a new site from scratch is on your side. And with backend developers and engineers ready to configure the ultimate content delivery mechanisms. But what of when you don't have that luxury? What then? Just decline the job? Maybe, but then someone else will come along and do the AJAX, and get paid because the content appears when the site loads every single time (provided JS is enabled ;-).

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#362

Post by JadeNB »

x0x0 wrote: post #34
gkoberger wrote: post #22

Here's a very relevant blog post by Alex Limi of Mozilla: http://limi.net/checkboxes-that-kill/ Most sites these days that aren’t just displaying content will fail in interesting & mysterious ways if you don’t have JavaScript enabled. For the general population, Firefox will appear broken. And yes, I know that some people have reasons (privacy, web development) to turn off JavaScript. There are many add-ons that can…

The other thing Alex posted is firefox really gives you no indication of why the internet looks weird and is breaking left and right. So you can disable js or images or ssl and unless you're lucky enough to know a programmer or IT person really have no guide to undoing whatever happened.

Surely the best solution to "Firefox isn't very helpful about indicating when you've made a possibly breaking change" is "Firefox should indicate when you've done so", not "Firefox shouldn't let you"?

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#363

Post by JadeNB »

vidarh wrote: post #167
vacri wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember a user flat out lying about what an error box said over the phone. I asked her to read it out, she gave be what was in her head, not on the screen. I asked her to read it word-by-word, she did the same. I asked her to read it out letter-by-letter ("I've never seen that error there before, I want to get it exactly right so I can ask the programmers...") and then she actually looked at what it said.

Oh the dread that phone support brings back to me... The number of "tricks" we had to use to get users to tell us what they actually saw, and do what we actually told them, rather then what they thought they were looking at or thought they should do... Anyone interested in psychology should do phone support for a few weeks...

Can you share any specific incidents? This seems like it would make a very popular HN story.

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#364

Post by JadeNB »

smokestack wrote: post #318
sergiotapia wrote: post #3

I like this! The option is still there for power users (who most likely _know_ why they want to disable Javascript) and normal users can't accidentally disable it. Win-win!

What's awful is that the update reportedly enables JS even if you had previously disabled it, though I doubt this was intentional.

Why do you think it was unintentional? It's specifically mentioned in the "Checkboxes that kill" blogpost, so they're hardly unaware of it.

(I agree that the changing of existing settings is the offensive part.)

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#365

Post by JadeNB »

Zecc wrote: post #211
skriticos2 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just put it in the about:config page for FF? Casual users are unlikely to accidentially access this page as there is no GUI navigation to it. Though most casual users I know avoid GUI configuration all the same, so I don't really see the issue here.

UI discussion aside, changing the option on upgrade seems a little... impolite, to say the least.

That's the point that seems to be missed in the discussion: sure, let Mozilla shuffle options where they want, hopefully with some thought; but don't change the user's configuration. If you feel that it's absolutely necessary to do so, then pop up a big banner saying "We want to change your settings. May we?" To do otherwise is bordering-on-crapware-tactics rude.

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#366

Post by JadeNB »

nnnnni wrote: post #248
Arelius wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know of any empirical evidence, but the story normally goes: There is a new Java exploit, and recommendations to remove/disable Java hit the wild. Then while people try to find out how to disable "Java" Find "Disable Javascript" and assume it's related. Perhaps this would be solved by renaming it "Disable Ecmascript" however. I really have no idea how common this is, but have seen it once, from a user that's…

It's a shame that they didn't push "ecmascript" as the name ~15 years ago back when it was new. Now we're stuck with problems like this...

It wasn't an accident—they wanted to appear similar to Java (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript#Birth_at_Netscape):

> The final choice of name caused confusion, giving the impression that the language was a spin-off of the Java programming language, and the choice has been characterized by many as a marketing ploy by Netscape to give JavaScript the cachet of what was then the hot new web programming language.

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#367

Post by [deleted] »

exodust wrote: post #361
Isofarro wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How are we meant to handle AJAX requests that fetch data to display on the web page that allows users to achieve the goal of their visit? Make the request from your server, parse it on your server, template it on your server, and deliver the HTML result to your user. > Without JS enabled, that part of the page will be blank, and many modern, rich content-heavy sites now pull data from different places on the fly, i…

Sounds cool, but speaking from recent experience, the option to make the request from the server, parse it on the server, template it and deliver it was not available to me for the job I was asked to do (as a frontend developer). Sometimes it comes down to doing it with client side AJAX, or not doing it at all. With developers learning to do their jobs properly, sure when the luxury of time and starting a new site fr…

[deleted]

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#368

Post by Someone »

SomeoneElsa wrote: post #351
Someone wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not planning on implementing that, but let's pretend I want to. When would that dialog come up? Attempt #1: show that dialog as soon as a page tries to load some JavaScript. Result (I'm guessing): dialog shows up on 99.9% of all web pages one visits (even for the nerdiest of nerds) Attempt #2: silently download the JavaScript to figure out whether it is 'benign' or 'evil'. Result: users complain that they pay fo…

Understand that no dialog is necessary for such an idea to be implemented at all. Observe: The webpage you are viewing may not work correctly because the following options differ from their default values: 1. Enable automatic loading of images. 2. Enable JavaScript. These features of Firefox are essential for most webpages to run properly. If the webpage you are trying to access is behaving strangely or appears to be…

1. who would insert that fragment in a page (and where, but let's ignore that)? I don't think you can expect sites to do it to make their site work with users who have JavaScript disabled (target audience is too small), so the browser must do it. How is the browser going to figure out whether to insert it?

Also: how is that not a dialog? It presents a message to the user, and waits for a reply.

I still think 'no JavaScript' is a niche feature that is best delegated to an extension that sports a whitelist or a blacklist of scripts to allow/forbid. A variation on Adblock would work fine (maybe, Adblock already can be used to blacklist JavaScript. If so, it is a matter of tweaking its UI)

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#369

Post by homeomorphic »

asadotzler wrote: post #352
homeomorphic wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then have another checkbox, something like " enable advanced settings (warning: if you don't know anything about cars, would you really mess with your car's breaks?) ", that toggles the availability of these kinds of settings. Everybody wins.

We have that. It's called about:config.

Good point.

Re: "Disable Javascript" option removed in Firefox 23

#370

Post by tokenizerrr »

straight_talk wrote: post #348
tokenizerrr wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like what kind of data?

Seriously? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_banking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-site_scripting

Except that Javascript cannot access that, unless some glaring design flaws have been made.

If you disagree with me, and believe it can, I would just love to see a webpage that dumps out valuable data inside my browser. I'll visit it without any browser plugins using the same session I have been using for over a month, promise!

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