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Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

reuters.com

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Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#361

Post by hardbass »

Computer0 wrote: post #318
lovich wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gotta be honest, the phrase “colonial settler ideology” gets an instant eye roll and detracts from the rest of your statements. Most nations on the planet are formed of settlers unless you think there were always Russians in Siberia, or there were always Anglo-Saxons on Albion.

Those happened many lifetimes ago. Much like the slave trade we recognize these actions by our ancestors to be wrong. There are many different conversations about "Land Back" or reparations for those affected by these systems, which often lead to nowhere. The distinction is this is happening today.

Yes for example if a religious extremist British faction were trying to colonize Native American america today, I'd gladly support funding and arming them against the invaders. Whats centuries past is past, what is happening today is important.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#362

Post by hardbass »

tonks wrote: post #293
manyaoman wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the raw suffering but also the sense of systematic oppression between groups that triggers people. Yemen or Sudan don't get nearly enough attention because most people find those conflicts harder to understand in terms of "good and evil" than the Israel-Palestine conflict.

We are bombarded by the suffering because it suits the left self hate narrative and Hamas operatives are always on hand with expensive photography equipment. Palestinian suffering is literally part of their strategy to turn the kids in America against Israel. It's a dumb strategy, but Palestinian society has chosen dumb strategies for nearly a hundred years now. Antizionists will sacrifice an infinite number of Pales…

What is "self hate" about not liking Israel? Do you think Americans should identify as Israelis? Israel is a foreign country, like any other foreign country.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#363

Post by hardbass »

Manuel_D wrote: post #168
Qem wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of tech companies involved in this genocide[1]. Unfortunately tech has bad antecedents, as IBM also supported genocide in WWII[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_involved_in_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust

Many of the companies in that list have essentially zero link to the events in Gaza. E.g. a Swiss company that supplies coal to Israel is considered complicit in genocide. Because Israelis having electricity means complicity in genocide, apparently. Hyundai is included because it sells vehicles to Israel, allegedly those machines were used to destroy Palestinian building but the cited source doesn't mention Hyundai:…

It makes sense to me. Of course Israel not having electricity would make it difficult for them to wage war and thus is a valid tactic for someone wishing to curtail their belligerence. And yes, boycotting business with countries is a perfectly normal procedure? It was done to Russia, it was done to South Africa. Where is the problem?

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#364

Post by t0mpr1c3 »

andriy_koval wrote: post #357
t0mpr1c3 wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect the UN to investigate what the IDF defines as collateral damage and draw their own conclusion. Their conclusion is genocide. I'm not sure all the facts are in yet in relation to Ukraine, but I do not anticipate that Putin will be getting his yacht back in the immediate future.

Would you accept opinion that UN is politicized org which does work of varying quality and its conclusion can't be accepted as ground truth without trivial checks?

I do not accept your opinion, or assertion, that "harming civilians is the norm" nor the implication that normative violence serves as any kind of license or justification.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#365

Post by andriy_koval »

t0mpr1c3 wrote: post #364
andriy_koval wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you accept opinion that UN is politicized org which does work of varying quality and its conclusion can't be accepted as ground truth without trivial checks?

I do not accept your opinion, or assertion, that "harming civilians is the norm" nor the implication that normative violence serves as any kind of license or justification.

Harming civilians is absolutely the norm in warfare through all humans history, all/most nations including likely yours practiced it in multiple points of time. Its also norm pretending that its bad while actually practicing it.

The question was specifically about genocide allegations, and blind trust in UN sub-orgs reports.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#366

Post by Sabinus »

ebbi wrote: post #331
spwa4 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to add, dragging in Hitler because none of WW2 can be explained without him, and the parent poster posted details about the conflict that immediately preceded the independence of the state of Israel. Right before that, WW2 happened and so what happened in the 2 cannot be seen separate from each other. Hence both sides' behavior during WW2 should be seen as part of the context of what David Ben-Gurion was doi…

You purposely trying to claim Hussaini was 'the pope' of Muslims as though he was a central figure of authority that spoke for Muslims/Palestinians just shows how biased you are - not surprising, given your constant bias on this topic on many other posts. A cursory study on Islam will show you that Islam doesn't have a central figure of authority like the Pope. Therefore what Hussaini did, was him as an individual, a…

Hussaini was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem from 1921 to 1937, described as the chief Muslim legal-religious authority in Jerusalem under the Mandate. He was also president of the Supreme Muslim Council, giving him major control over Muslim religious institutions, waqf funds, courts, schools, appointments, teachers, and preachers. He later presided over the Arab Higher Committee, the main umbrella body of Palestinian Arab politics during the 1936–39 revolt. He was one of the most important Palestinian Arab religious-nationalist leaders of the Mandate period and a Nazi collaborator.

It's not very logical to condemn Zionists asking Nazi Germany to send Jews to them instead of the camps and then minimise Hussaini's importance and far deeper collaboration.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#367

Post by throwawayb2025 »

tonks wrote: post #294
throwawayb2025 wrote: post #290

Just curious to know what is acceptable proportionate response for: 1. What was done on October 7? Assuming that some kind of response from Israel was acceptable. 2. Against Israel for what Israel is doing now? Assuming that Israel is over reacting. Maybe if we can come with a framework for what is acceptable, world can force certain behavior. Edited for formatting.

It's always analysis of Israel's response and zero soul searching on the Palestinian side.

Didn't understand your point. Point 2 was for suffering of Palestinian. What is the appropriate response that should be given to Israel for what they did post October 7.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#368

Post by n4r9 »

Protostome wrote: post #253
Schmerika wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than 14,500 children were killed by Israel in that period. 14,500 / 154 = more than 94 children per resolution. Seems fair. How many children did "Iran, North Korea, Sudan, Russia, China combined " kill in this period, I hear you whatabout: Highest reasonable estimates are ~5,000–10,000 children. ... So, no. I don't think it's unfair. Now let's compare how many sanctions have been inflicted on each country above…

Again, children got killed because their school was used as a ground base to fire rockets from. Do you expect Israelis to allow Hamas rockets to fall in Israeli schools? That's not a reasonable expectation. The choice hamas forces israel to make is cruel and inhuman, that is direct consequence of their radical islamic belief of martirdom. They do not see death like the same way as the west. To them (and I'm not talki…

How far do you want to take the chain of causality? Hamas is in power because of increased popular support during the first and second intifadas. The first and second intifadas happened because of land expropriation, settlement expansions, and mistreatment of Palestinians.

I condemn Hamas' use of hospitals. But it is not as if Israel has simply taken the most reasonable response to defend itself at each step.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#369

Post by gershy »

Computer0 wrote: post #318
lovich wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gotta be honest, the phrase “colonial settler ideology” gets an instant eye roll and detracts from the rest of your statements. Most nations on the planet are formed of settlers unless you think there were always Russians in Siberia, or there were always Anglo-Saxons on Albion.

Those happened many lifetimes ago. Much like the slave trade we recognize these actions by our ancestors to be wrong. There are many different conversations about "Land Back" or reparations for those affected by these systems, which often lead to nowhere. The distinction is this is happening today.

I mean you could qualify it by saying e.g. "it's a post-19XX settler colonial movement" - that would be some refreshing nuance on what is otherwise glaringly ideological language, mostly parroted by those who don't know much about the history (hence, I suspect, the disregard you received from another commenter here).

But even then the implication of some global cutoff year after which certain actions are officially no longer "ethical" or "advisable" is pretty ridiculous. Our ethical standards shouldn't vary only by what year it is, but rather ideally by the broadest possible context we are able to fathom. Israel is a unique case with indigenous jews returning to their native land after unparalleled delay, except in terms of borders modern-day israel doesn't perfectly map to ancient judea, and the crazy history of british intervention, geopolitical tension, war, expansion, and attempted peace treaties.

Re: Israel targeted Gaza children resulting in genocide, UN inquiry says

#370

Post by gershy »

hardbass wrote: post #361
Computer0 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those happened many lifetimes ago. Much like the slave trade we recognize these actions by our ancestors to be wrong. There are many different conversations about "Land Back" or reparations for those affected by these systems, which often lead to nowhere. The distinction is this is happening today.

Yes for example if a religious extremist British faction were trying to colonize Native American america today, I'd gladly support funding and arming them against the invaders. Whats centuries past is past, what is happening today is important.

This positions israel as the invader, but pro-israelis (like myself) will argue that historically israeli jews+arabs are the indigenous population, and have been the target of invasion, and israeli territorial expansion has been through arguably defensive wars. In your example I immediately think "you'd never support a native movement that willfully and indiscriminately murdered a bunch of british citizens". And to me it's an even weaker argument, as jews are indigenous to not-too-far-off from the borders of modern day israel - in a way that does not correspond to brits in america.
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