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Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

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Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#361

Post by bakugo »

everdrive wrote: post #119

The number of people worried about a slightly thicker phone are absolutely baffling to me. I honestly think there is no hope for us broadly. Normally I'd say that people cannot deal with minor inconveniences -- but this does not even register as an inconvenience. From my view, this is a _perceived_ downgrade in luxury status. Not even a real downgrade in luxury status -- and not a downgrade in convenience whatsoever.

It's even crazier when you consider how many people buy their fancy thin iPhones and then immediately slap some ugly and/or bulky case on them.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#362

Post by kube-system »

torginus wrote: post #300
GuB-42 wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is also a rugged phone. So if you want to make a fair comparison with an iPhone, you have to put the iPhone in a case, resulting in a similar weight and thickness.

Yeah the first thing everyone does with their new iPhones is put them in a case - at that point thinness doesn't matter, Id argue Apple counts on it, as their phones are awkward to hold otherwise. Replaceable covers used to serve the same purpose.

> Yeah the first thing everyone does with their new iPhones is put them in a case - at that point thinness doesn't matter

Or does that mean thinness matter just that much more?

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#363

Post by ThomPete »

everdrive wrote: post #119

The number of people worried about a slightly thicker phone are absolutely baffling to me. I honestly think there is no hope for us broadly. Normally I'd say that people cannot deal with minor inconveniences -- but this does not even register as an inconvenience. From my view, this is a _perceived_ downgrade in luxury status. Not even a real downgrade in luxury status -- and not a downgrade in convenience whatsoever.

This is just flat out wrong. Making it removable means making it less effective, meaning using more materials etc.

What is much more concerning is that you seem to be totally fine with the government deciding how something should be designed for not reason what so ever.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#364

Post by School-Cotton »

cornyhorse wrote: post #188
kergonath wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FFS. Everything is a compromise. People who want smaller and lighter are not more wrong than those who want battery and physical protection.

Erm, I mean they kind of are given the massive externalities non user serviceable parts causes.

E-waste is a minuscule rounding error compared to all the other forms of environmental destruction modern industrial civilization causes. European countries are massive polluters and net carbon producers (though not quite as bad as the US); e-waste shouldn't even be on their radar since it is a distraction from almost infinitely more important environmental concerns. People complaining about this don't actually care about e-waste, they just talk about it because it's convenient for their argument.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#365

Post by School-Cotton »

ryandrake wrote: post #70
joe_mamba wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My low-cost plastic Casio watch based on a very old design is waterproof and battery can be swapped out by undoing 4 philips screws, no glue. Its buttons can also be operated under water while staying waterproof. What is this whicraft?

I get it for watches, but I've never understood the mass-market need for a waterproof phone, outside of a few niche hobbies. Are people showering and swimming with their phones or something? Or dropping them in their toilets? The wettest my phone has ever been in 8 years is in my pocket while it's raining.

> Are people showering and swimming with their phones or something?

Believe it or not, yes!

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#366

Post by al_borland »

kccqzy wrote: post #47
joe_mamba wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My low-cost plastic Casio watch based on a very old design is waterproof and battery can be swapped out by undoing 4 philips screws, no glue. Its buttons can also be operated under water while staying waterproof. What is this whicraft?

I normally much prefer screws over glue but Apple has at least been using repair-friendly glue like the electrically debonding adhesive in use for iPhone 16e/17e.

Making these devices repairable is not just about taking it apart, it's also about getting it back together. If I need to electrically debond the adhesive, then I'd also need to new strips of this special adhesive to hold the new battery in place. All of this is after needing a heat gun to weaken the adhesive just to get into it, which I assume also needs to be reapplied on reassembly to retain the same level of water and dust resistance.

It's not just a matter of buying a battery and using some tools the average person has on hand. A whole kit of specialty tools and parts needs to be ordered to facilitate the repair. Apple's own repair kit is the most extreme form of this, where they ship 70lbs of tools, which would be comical if it wasn't so sad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjsc6UypDOI

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#367

Post by chroma »

user_7832 wrote: post #206
chroma wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is that people have different preferences, so the EU should not force people to buy phones with removable batteries. People who want such features can buy those phones, and people who want smaller, thinner phones can buy ones with integrated batteries. At most the EU should tax externalities like electronic waste, though that would be a rounding error compared to the cost of the phone itself.

> The point is that people have different preferences, so the EU should not force people to buy phones with removable batteries. There are many food additives with very useful properties, but health effects. There are many perfumes too where the original formulation had a particular compound layer found to be carcinogenic. Regardless of whether an individual prefers to use such compounds at their own risk or not, lar…

I not sure how much we’re disagreeing here. Applying my argument of taxing externalities to certain food additives would result in taxes so high that it would effectively be a ban.

The externalities of integrated batteries are that people probably replace their phones sooner than otherwise, resulting in more electronic waste. But phones are only a tiny fraction of e-waste. Most e-waste is from household appliances, displays, & HVAC equipment. Phones are less 10%. I mean, how could it be otherwise? Phones are small and people use them for years before upgrading.

I’m not sure what the Android/iOS duopoly has to do with removable batteries. Mandating removable batteries would not change the operating systems available. And while there isn’t much choice in which OS you can run on a phone, there is enough choice that you can buy phones with removable batteries. If anything, this is an argument against mandating removable batteries, as governments are not mandating/subsidizing another phone OS despite far less choice in that area.

Lastly, I don’t see how banning people from having phones with integrated batteries gives them more choice. Most people (such as myself) don’t really care about removable batteries, and would rather have a phone that is smaller, cheaper, and/or more resistant to the elements. The way to give people the most choice is to tax externalities commensurate to the harm they cause, and let the market figure out what people actually value.

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#368

Post by jorams »

protimewaster wrote: post #219
wmf wrote: post #7

There's an exception for batteries that "retain at least 80% of its original capacity after 1,000 charge cycles." Coincidentally, iPhones and probably other flagships already qualify for this exception.

Last time this was discussed, it was stated that the text exempting based on cycle counts was removed from the final, adopted version. Is that incorrect?

The batteries regulation[1] doesn't contain such an exemption. The legal argument that iPhones may be exempt goes like this:

- The batteries regulation is a general regulation and article 11 specifically says the following:

> This paragraph shall be without prejudice to any specific provisions ensuring a higher level of protection of the environment and human health relating to the removability and replaceability of portable batteries by end-users laid down in any Union law on electrical and electronic equipment as defined in Article 3(1), point (a), of Directive 2012/19/EU.

- There is a different regulation, the ecodesign regulation for smartphones and tablets[2], that is more specific and therefore might supersede the batteries regulation on this front, which says:

> (ii) manufacturers, importers or authorised representatives may provide the battery or batteries referred to in point (i)(a) only to professional repairers if manufacturers, importers or authorised representatives ensure that the following requirements are met:

> (a) after 500 full charge cycles the battery has, in a fully charged state, a remaining capacity of at least 83 % of the rated capacity;

> (b) the battery endurance in cycles achieves a minimum of 1 000 full charge cycles and after 1 000 full charge cycles the battery has, in a fully charged state, a remaining capacity of at least 80 % of the rated capacity;

> (c) the device meets IP67 rating.

[1]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

[2]: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...

Re: Removable batteries in smartphones will be mandatory in the EU starting in 2027

#369

Post by detourdog »

giantrobot wrote: post #347
alt227 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologies, my coment came off a bit unecessarily aggressive. It is my preference to have user replaceable batteries, and my belief is that they were only removed to make phones become obselete quicker and cause higher turnover of purchased phones. No amount of battery packs can bring that back.

> It is my preference to have user replaceable batteries, and my belief is that they were only removed to make phones become obselete quicker and cause higher turnover of purchased phones. My iPhone 12 is six years old. I replaced the battery last year. While it probably won't be workable on cellular networks in six years, outside of physical damage there's little reason it'll stop working. My original iPhone from 20…

My 2018 car lost all it's connected features when the 3G network was shut down.
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