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The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

bramcohen.com

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Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#361
post #241
post #178

"Laughing" at how bad the code in Claude Code is really seems to be missing the forest for the trees. Anthropic didn't set out to build a bunch of clean code when writing Claude Code. They set out to make a bunch of money, and given CC makes in the low billions of ARR, is growing rapidly, and is the clear market leader, it seems they succeeded. Given this, you would think you'd would want to approach the strategy tha…

If Claude Code truly was worth something they'd sell it instead of forcing its use with a subscription.

Isn’t this the point? People use CC for the model, not the harness. So the harness can be slop and it doesn’t matter.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#362
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> extremely productive camp somewhere in the middle How do you quantify and measure this productivity gain?

These kinds of comments are so spectacularly useless. It was almost impossible to measure productivity gains from _computers_ for nearly two decades after they started being deployed to offices in the 1980s. There were articles as late as the late 1990s that suggested that investing in IT was a waste of money and had not improved productivity. You will not see obvious productivity gains until the current generation o…

It was not impossible to measure them. It is just that you dont like the result of the measurement - early adopters often overpaid and endes up with less efficient processes for more money.

Eventually companies figured out how to use them effectively and eventually useful software was created. But, at the start of the whole thing, there was a lot of waste.

Quite a lot of people are now paying a lot for ai that makes them produce less and lower quality. Because it feels good and novel.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#363
people that 'violate the rules of good code' when vibe-coding are largely people that don't know the rules of good code to begin with.

want code that isn't shit? embrace a coding paradigm and stick to it without flip-flopping and sticking your toe into every pond, use a good vcs, and embrace modularity and decomposability.

the same rules when 'writing real code'.

9/10 times when I see an out-of-control vibe coded project it sorta-kinda started as OOP before sorta-kinda trying to be functional and so on. You can literally see the trends change mid-code. That would produce shit regardless of what mechanism used such methods, human/llm/alien/otherwise.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#364

It’s truly strange that people keep citing the quality of Claude code’s leaked source as if it’s proof vibe coding doesn’t work. If anything, it’s the exact opposite. It shows that you can build a crazy popular & successful product while violating all the traditional rules about “good” code.

I think you're all fucking crazy. Or maybe I am?

I can literally see my teams codebase becoming an unmaintainable nightmare in front of my eyes each day.

I use copilot and Claude code and I frequently have to throw away their massively verbose and ridiculously complex code and engage my withering brain to come up with the correct solution that is 80% less code.

I probably get to the solution in the same time when all is said and done.

Honestly what is going on. What are we doing here?

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#365
post #160

I've been a skeptic about LLMs in general since I first heard of them. And I'm a sysadmin type, more comfortable with python scripts than writing "real" software. No formal education in coding at all other than taking Harvard's free online python course a few years ago. So I set out to build an app with CC just to see what it's like. I currently use Copilot (copilot.money) to track my expenditures, but I've become en…

Honestly, I think it's great that you could get the thing you wanted done.

Consider this, though: Your anecdote has nothing to do with software engineering (or an engineering mindset). No measurements were done, no technical aspects were taken into consideration (you readily admit that you lack the knowledge to do that), you're not expecting to maintain it or seemingly to further develop it much.

The above situation has never actually been hard; the thing you made is trivial to someone who knows the basics of a small set of things. LLMs (not Claude Code) have made this doable for someone who knows none of the things and that's very cool.

But all of this really doesn't mean anything for solutions to more complex problems where more knowledge is required, or solutions that don't even really exist yet, or something that people pay for, or things that are expected to be worked on continuously over time, perhaps by multiple people.

When people decry vibecoding as being moronic, the subtext really is (or should be) that they're not really talking to you; they're talking to people who are delivering things that people are expected to pay for, or rely on as part of their workflow, and people who otherwise act like their output/product is good when it's clearly a mess in terms of UX.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#366
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and to add, in case it's not obvious: in my experience the maintenance, mental (and emotional costs, call me sensitive) cost of bad code compounds exponentially the more hacks you throw at it

Sure, for humans. Not sure they'll be the primary readers of code going forward

Entropy and path dependence are unavoidable laws of mathematics. Not even evolution can avoid them.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#367
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This product rides a hype wave. This is why it is crazy popular and successful. The situation there is akin to Viaweb - Viaweb also rode hype wave and code situation was awful as well (see PG's stories about fixing bugs during customer's issue reproduction theater). What did Viaweb's buyer do? They rewrote thing in C++. If history rhymes, then buyer of Anthropic would do something close to "rewrite it in C++" to the…

I don't disagree with your general premise that eventually it'll just be rewritten, but I have to push back on the idea that Anthropic will be acquired. Their most recent valuation was $380B, and even if they wanted to be acquired (which I doubt) essentially no company has the necessary capital.

It is hard to find market shares of Viaweb and Yahoo at the time of Viaweb's purchase, the best I've found is that Viaweb was bought for 1/4 of Yahoo's net revenue at the time ($49M price/$203 net revenue in 1998). Viaweb was not profitable at the time of purchase, but it had about four people and quite modest hardware costs.

While there are no companies with $1.5 trillions (4*$380B) of net revenue, the difference is that Anthropic is cash net-negative, has more than 4 people in staff (none of them are hungry artists like PG) and hardware use spendings, I think, are astronomical. They are cash net-negative because of hardware needed to train models.

There should be more than one company able to offer good purchase terms to Anthropic's owners.

I also think that Anthropic, just like OpenAI and most of other LLM companies and companies' departments, ride "test set leakage," hoping general public and investors do not understand. Their models do not generalize well, being unable to generate working code in Haskell [1] at the very least.

[1] https://haskellforall.com/2026/03/a-sufficiently-detailed-sp...

PG's Viaweb had an awful code as a liability. Anthropic's Claude Code has an awful implementation (code) and produces awful code, with more liability than code written by human.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#368
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that will be true with AI as well. No accounting for taste, but part of makes code hard for me to reason about is when it has lots of combinatorial complexity, where the amount of states that can happen makes it difficult to know all the possible good and bad states that your program can be in. Combinatorial complexity is something that objectively can be expensive for any form of computer, be it a hu…

What do you think about the argument that we are entering a world where code is so cheap to write, you can throw the old one away and build a new one after you've validated the business model, found a niche, whatever? I mean, it seems like that has always been true to an extent, but now it may be even more true? Once you know you're sitting on a lode of gold, it's a lot easier to know how much to invest in the mine.

Someone has to figure out how to make the experiences of the two generations consistent in the ways it needs to be and differ only in the ways it doesn't still.

Re: The cult of vibe coding is dogfooding run amok

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad code works fine until it doesn't. In my experience, with humans, doing the right thing is worth it over doing the bad thing if your time horizon is a few months. Once you're in years, absolutely do the right thing, you're actually throwing time away if you don't. And I don't mean "big refactor", I mean at-change-time, when you think "this change feels like an icky hack." For LLMs, I don't really know. I only have…

If you make a working and functional bad code, and put it on maintenance mode, it can keep churning for decades with no major issues. Everything depends on context. Most code written by humans is indeed, garbage.

> Most code written by humans is indeed, garbage.

I think that this is the problem, actually.

It's similar to writing. Most people suck at writing so badly that the LLM/AI writing is almost always better when writing is "output".

Code is similar. Most programmers suck at programming so badly that LLM/AI production IS better than 90+% (possibly 99%+). Remember, a huge number of programmers couldn't pass FizzBuzz. So, if you demand "output", Claude is probably better than most of your (especially enterprise) programming team.

The problem is that the Claude usage flood is simply identifying the fact that things that work do so because there is a competent human somewhere in the review pipeline who has been rejecting the vast majority of "output" from your programming team. And he is now overwhelmed.

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