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Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

theguardian.com

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Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#361

Post by pqtyw »

epolanski wrote: post #279
pqtyw wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Exports amount for 50% of german economy and 30%+ of Italian one. And in China its barely 20%. But most of German and Italian exports go to other EU countries so its not exactly a fair comparison. Not quite the same but not that different to trade between different US states.

China is the biggest market of German cars.

Is it?

https://www.vda.de/en/news/facts-and-figures/annual-figures/...

Number of cars exported to China seems very low based on this? Even lower than Belgium...

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#362

Post by pqtyw »

applfanboysbgon wrote: post #325
pqtyw wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entirely because of taxes. Norway and Denmark are special cases because they already had extremely high taxes on ICE vehicles.

Do you feel that externalities should not be taxed? That individuals should be able to do things that collectively cost everyone else in society money, without any expectation that they pay money into a societal fund to address the problems created by their own actions?

Maybe? Seems not particularly relevant. It's not like this cost is tied to the particular tax rate.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#363

Post by youknownothing »

xp84 wrote: post #359
bakies wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their homes don't have electricity?

Everyone in Europe has a garage in their home?

I'm European, in my 40 years living in Europe I have never had a garage. I don't know where you're getting that idea from.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#365

Post by nullpoint420 »

danaris wrote: post #328
nullpoint420 wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So there's no new capacity that went online for the new build-outs? None of that could've been used for residential capacity?

Sure there is. But some of the datacenters individually use as much power as an entire city. When you're trying to build out dozens or hundreds of those across the country, there's no way we can ramp up capacity at that rate.

That's exactly my point. I'd rather have those built outs to power entire cities.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#366

Post by sehansen »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #277
tw-20260303-001 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said “nearly”. Ford is the only American brand selling numbers in Europe, maybe nect to Tesla.

GM sells a whole bunch of stuff they just don't put a bowtie on the grill in Europe or Asia because they have other brands they use there.

The only things GM sells in Europe nowadays is the Corvette and the Cadillacs Lyriq, Optiq and Vistiq. Opel and Vauxhall were sold of almost ten years ago.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#367

Post by sehansen »

ceejayoz wrote: post #22
hyperionultra wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By limiting imports and offering alternatives in home. Also, the myths about reliability ads a lot.

> By limiting imports and offering alternatives in home. Yeah, that's kinda how Cuba winds up with everyone (well, the small portion of society who can obtain one) driving 1950s cars around. It's not a good approach.

There were plenty of Peugeots, Fiats, Hyundais and Geelys when I went there in 2017. The old 50s American cars were either beatifully maintained for tourist rides or easy to fix rural work-horses.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#368

Post by sehansen »

SirHumphrey wrote: post #92
wodenokoto wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think 80 or 90% of new cars in northern Europe are electric. Saying EV tech isn’t there to replace gas is like saying gas tech isn’t there to replace diesel. Gas powered cars are niche or legacy.

In 2024[1]: - 37.2% in Sweeden - 51.6% in Denmark - 30.4% in Finland of newly registered cars were BEV. Only Norway reaches 89% you are talking about. The total average of newly registered BEV cars in European Union was 13.6%. The EV tech is here,but the grid in most EU countries is certainly not. The proliferation of heat pumps in the local area caused 3 blackouts caused by a failure of a local transformer - somethi…

In 2025[1]: 64.3% in Sweden - 69.3% in Denmark - 55.2% in Finland. Across the EU 2.6 million BEVs were sold out of ~13 million cars in total, i.e. 20% in 2025. That's on top of 1.3 million PHEVs which is an even faster growing segment.

So it's not quite 80% yet, but it's getting there fast.

1: https://www.tradingpedia.com/forex-brokers/global-demand-for...

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#369

Post by tirant »

sjducb wrote: post #223
DennisP wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electricity costs more in Europe than the US, but so does gasoline, by about the same ratio. EVs in the US have lower running costs than internal combustion cars. The EV industry in general is growing quite well in Europe. It's just that China is capturing the biggest share of that growth.

EVs are more expensive in total. The Volvo XC90 EV is about 90k the petrol equivalent is 60k Then if you drive 100,000 miles in it you’ll spend £20,000 on petrol. 100000 miles / 32 mpg = 3125 gal 3125 × 4.546 L = 14206 L 14206 L × £1.45/L = £20598.70 ≈ £20.6k total petrol cost Even with free electricity petrol wins on cost. If you buy the car used then the story changes.

That's not at all my observation.

If you take brands like BMW, the EV counterpart is always at around the same price or cheaper.

But if you're even comparing second hand, the balance is falling even more on the EV side. Second hand EVs can be bought very cheaply.

Re: Western carmakers' retreat from electric risks dooming them to irrelevance

#370

Post by epolanski »

kubb wrote: post #280
epolanski wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the same thing I said. Protectionism can help when you want to develop an industry. But it never works for mature ones.

Tell that to American steel tariffs, which have been renewed by every president from Bush to Biden. Or European agriculture, protected for 70 years and still is. Or Japanese rice farmers. These are about as mature as industries get.

You can have some debate that food or steel are borderline vital for national security.

Electric cars? Nope.

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