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Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

tuananh.net

361–370 of 408 posts

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#361
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you had a hermetically sealed code base that just happened to coincide line for line with the codebase for GCC, it would still be a copy. If you somehow actually randomly produce the same code without a reference, it's not a copy and doesn't violate copyright. You're going to get sued and lose, but platonically, you're in the clear. If it's merely somewhat similar, then you're probably in the clear in practice t…

> If you somehow actually randomly produce the same code without a reference, it's not a copy and doesn't violate copyright. I don't believe this, and I doubt that the sense of copying in copyright law is so literal. For instance, if I generated the exact text of a novel by looking for hash collisions, or by producing random strings of letters, or by hammering the middle button on my phone's autosuggestion keyboard,…

> I don't believe this, and I doubt that the sense of copying in copyright law is so literal.

What color are your bits? That's all the law cares about.

The first sentence is the title of an essay.

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#362
I really dislike the precedent this sets.

A silver lining if this maintainer ends up being in the right is that any proprietary software can easily be reverse engineered and stripped of it's licensing by any hobbyist with enough free time and claude tokens.

Personally, I'd welcome a post-copyright software era

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The actual meaning of a "clean room implementation" is that it is derived from an API and not from an implementation This is incorrect and thinking this can get you sued https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure,_sequence_and_organi...

I did not expect people to take "API" so literally. This point is what I was referring to when I said "I am simplifying slightly". The point is that a clean room impl begins from a specification of what the software does, and that the new implementation is purported to be derived only from this. What I am trying to say is that "not looking at the implementation" is not exactly the point of the test - that is a rule o…

It probably works great for a machine too at least when it comes to a closed source product. The issue is specifically the part where the LLM was almost certainly trained on the code in question which is going to be an issue for any code published to the internet.

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#364
post #281

I am pretty sure this article is predicated on a misunderstanding of what a "clean room" implementation means. It does not mean "as long as you never read the original code, whatever you write is yours". If you had a hermetically sealed code base that just happened to coincide line for line with the codebase for GCC, it would still be a copy. Traditionally, a human-driven clean room implementation would have a vanish…

> What the chardet maintainers have done here is legally very irresponsible. Perhaps the maintainer wants to force the issue? > Any downstream user of the library is at risk of the license switching from underneath them. Checking the license of the transitive closure of your dependencies is table stakes for using them.

The problem is that the transitive closure isn't clear here. One of the entries is being claimed to be one thing but might in fact turn out to be another.

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#366

In mind, if you feed code into an AI model then the output is clearly a derivative work, with all the licensing implications. This seems objectively reasonable?

But code was fed into the models to create them, so where do we draw the line?

That is a good question - my personal opinion is that it should mean that models are not subject to copyright at all (similar to databases) but we will see what the courts decide :)

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BUt LLM has seen millions (?) of other code-bases too. If you give it a functional spec it has no reason to prefer any one of those code-bases in particular. Except perhaps if it has seen the original spec (if such can be read from public sources) associated with the old implementation, and the new spec is a copy of the old spec.

Yes if you are solving the exact problem that the original code solved and that original code was labeled as solving that exact problem then that’s very good reason for the LLM to produce that code. Researchers have shown that an LLM was able to reproduce the verbatim text of the first 4 Harry Potter books with 96% accuracy.

> that an LLM was able to reproduce the verbatim text of the first 4 Harry Potter books with 96% accuracy.

Kinda weird argument, in their research (https://forum.gnoppix.org/t/researchers-extract-up-to-96-of-...) LLM was explicitly asked to reproduce the book. There are people that can do so without LLMs out there, by this logic everything they write is a copyright infringement an every book they can reproduce.

> Yes if you are solving the exact problem that the original code solved and that original code was labeled as solving that exact problem then that’s very good reason for the LLM to produce that code.

I think you're overestimating LLM ability to generalize.

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#368

The philosophical question here is fascinating — if an AI rewrites every line, is it still the same codebase? At what point does the Ship of Theseus argument apply to licensing? Practically though, I wonder how much this cost in API calls.

$200/month subscription let’s you do that and more

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#369
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you had a hermetically sealed code base that just happened to coincide line for line with the codebase for GCC, it would still be a copy. That's not what the law says [1]. If two people happen to independently create the same thing they each have their own copyright. If it's highly improbable that two works are independent (eg. the gcc code base), the first author would probably go to court claiming copying, but…

Thank you for providing a reference! I certainly admit that "very similar photographs are not copies" as the reference states. And certainly physical copying qualifies as copying in the sense of copyright. However I still think copying can happen even if you never have access to a copy. I suppose a different way of stating my position is that some activities that don't look like copying are in fact copying. For insta…

I fully agree with you. (A small information theory nit pick with your example. The hash and program would have to be at least as long as a perfectly compressed copy of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. If not you've just invented a better compressor and are in the running for a Hutter Prize[1]! A hash and "decomporessor" of the required length would likely be considered to embody the work.)

It's an interesting case. As I understand it, there is an ongoing debate within the AI research community as to whether neural nets are encoding verbatim blocks of information or creating a model which captures the "essence" or "ideas" behind a work. If they are capturing ideas, which are not copyrightable, it would suggest that LLMs can be used to "launder" copyright. In this case, I get the feeling that, for legal clarity, we would both say that the work in question (or works derived from it) should not be part of the training set or prompt, emulating a clean room implementation by a human. (Is that a fair comment?)

I've no direct experience here, but I would come down on the side of "LLMs are encoding (copyrightable) verbatim text", because others are reporting that LLMs do regurgitate word-for-word chunks of text. Is this always the case though? Do different AI architectures, or models that are less well fitted, encode ideas rather than quotes?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutter_Prize

Edit: It would be an interesting experiment to use two LLMs to emulate a clean room implementation. The first is instructed to "produce a description of this program". The second, having never seen the program, in its prompt or training set, would be prompted to "produce a program based on this description". A human could vet the description produced by the first LLM for cleanliness. Surely someone has tried this, though it might be a challenge to get an LLM that is guaranteed not to have been exposed to a particular code base or its derivatives?

Re: Relicensing with AI-Assisted Rewrite

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it matter if it is 'ripped off' if you released it as open source anyway? I get that you might want to impose a particular licence, but is that the only reason?

Even the most permissive open source licenses such as MIT require attribution. Releasing as open source would therefore benefit the author through publicity. Bein able to say that you're the author of library X, used by megacorp Y with great success, is a good selling point in a job interview. LLM ripping off open source code removes that.

Yes, that's a good point.
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