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Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

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Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#361

Post by ErroneousBosh »

Symbiote wrote: post #352
ErroneousBosh wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is if you use a rapid charger. If you're fortunate enough to be able to do what you need with a car within 50 miles or so of your house and leave it overnight to charge, it's cheaper. At present, EVs do not solve any problem I have.

Very few people would use 100% rapid charging. Even on a long journey, they can arrive home with, say, 5-10% remaining, and recharge at home. (The car calculates this automatically.)

The range of most EVs is only about 120 miles, which isn't especially useful when they take around six hours to charge.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#362

Post by sandworm101 »

MaKey wrote: post #347
Manuel_D wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is suspect large trucks may eventually move to hydrogen, but smaller passenger vehicles will stay on batteries. The nature of hydrogen containment favors larger capacity, on account of better volume to surface area ratios.

>Is suspect large trucks may eventually move to hydrogen [...] They won't, why would they? The number of hydrogen gas stations is going down and the price is going up. Batteries are good enough already - the Mercedes eActros 600 with its 600 kWh battery has a range of 500 km.

Life expectancy. A hydrogen tank can be refilled forever. A battery is normally limited to a few thousand cycles. A truck, or airplane, is expected to be fueled/recharged daily for decades. A car is designed to survive the length of a standard lease. Those running fleets of trucks/aircraft will always care more than car owners about long-term ownership costs.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#363

Post by Hendrikto »

rswail wrote: post #301
aunty_helen wrote: post #60

Kinda glad this is the case. When people go out of their way to avoid common sense they should be punished. Hydrogen is such a terrible idea it was never getting off the ground. There seems to be some kind of psychosis around it being the next oil and therefore greedy people want to get in early on. But this blinds them to the basic chemistry and physics.

Green hydrogen makes sense as a way to ship solar power to places that don't have it. Using it as a car fuel only makes sense as an interim step to full renewable/EVs. Internal combustion engines, no matter what the fuel, are way more complicated than electric motors. Doesn't matter how you slice and dice the argument.

Also the losses are much higher when converting electricity to hydrogen and then burning that hydrogen.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#364

Post by Braxton1980 »

nandomrumber wrote: post #218
Braxton1980 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The picture is complex. Recovery here, fresh losses there. While the recovery we reported last year was welcome news, there are challenges ahead. The spectre of global annual coral bleaching will soon become a reality." This article also mentions that a recent large recovery was due to el nino conditions "Great Barrier Reef was reeling from successive disturbances, ranging from marine heatwaves and coral bleaching t…

No one ever attract public support and funding by saying: Don’t Panic. Everything is O.K. —- Edited to add: Rate limited so can’t reply without creating more alt accounts than I’m willing to, so: @Timon3 - that’s actually a really good point, and I follow at least a few folk that could be categorised as such at least some of the time.

Unless you have other evidence that this particular report is exaggerating without justification you can't solely rely on the fact that their opinions/results would benefit them as evidence they are providing misinformation.

It's possible for information to be factual and opinions to be justified from a source while that source also benefits from the information/opinions existing.

I can easily provide counter examples from countless situations that occur each year.

----

If you feel that all scientists and researchers have a lower level of trust because of negative actions of some, that's wrong of course because their reputations aren't connected, but you try to confirm it. For example, find out if a cooler than normal El Nino season would help coral feeds (or whatever)

What you did was tell us you don't trust the information, not because of something specific, but a concept/rule you believe.

Considering you originally misrepresented their findings, perhaps by accident, you should have done more to make your case.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#365

Post by amelius »

stephen_g wrote: post #91
ForHackernews wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it such a terrible idea? In theory you can generate it via electrolysis in places with plentiful renewable energy, and then you've got a very high-density, lightweight fuel. On the surface, it seems ideal for things like cars or planes where vehicle weight matters. Batteries are huge and heavy and nowhere near as energy dense as gasoline.

It’s horrible to work with - dangerous, embrittlement issues etc., and very energy intensive to compress into very heavy cryogenic storage containers…

Yeah it is so bad that it is common that rockets are launched with a hydrogen leak here or there.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#366

Post by shaky-carrousel »

tedk-42 wrote: post #358
MaKey wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is suspect large trucks may eventually move to hydrogen [...] They won't, why would they? The number of hydrogen gas stations is going down and the price is going up. Batteries are good enough already - the Mercedes eActros 600 with its 600 kWh battery has a range of 500 km.

Lol yes lets just casually plug into a 1.2MW charger and not take down the electricity of the nearby town while I charge my truck. Nuclear trucks and boats are what I envision so maybe I'm the one who needs a reality check.

Well, of course countries would have to modernize their electrical grid. But that's a good outcome.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#367

Post by formerly_proven »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #271
badc0ffee wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet they had one of the first hybrids (although not a plug-in hybrid) in the Prius.

Honda also was early in hybrids, but they like Toyota are also late on EVs.

The difference is probably philosophical. A (non-phev) hybrid is primarily an ICE car in every way. Building hybrids is building ICE cars with a little extra. Building EVs is different.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#368

Post by vel0city »

sandworm101 wrote: post #362
MaKey wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is suspect large trucks may eventually move to hydrogen [...] They won't, why would they? The number of hydrogen gas stations is going down and the price is going up. Batteries are good enough already - the Mercedes eActros 600 with its 600 kWh battery has a range of 500 km.

Life expectancy. A hydrogen tank can be refilled forever. A battery is normally limited to a few thousand cycles. A truck, or airplane, is expected to be fueled/recharged daily for decades. A car is designed to survive the length of a standard lease. Those running fleets of trucks/aircraft will always care more than car owners about long-term ownership costs.

This isn't necessarily true. Most cylinders storing compressed gasses need to be hydrostatically tested in regular intervals to ensure continued safety and will need replacement when they fail. Other kinds of composite cylinders have fixed ages where they should be replaced.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#369

Post by wao0uuno »

Manuel_D wrote: post #327
solatic wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but if the economics of hydrogen motors worked out for planes and shipping, the argument is that it would also economically work out for cars.

Is suspect large trucks may eventually move to hydrogen, but smaller passenger vehicles will stay on batteries. The nature of hydrogen containment favors larger capacity, on account of better volume to surface area ratios.

I worked in one of the top 5 logistics companies in the world and I can recall them investing in electric trucks and charging infrastructure. Idea was to have strategically placed overhead lines that could recharge trucks without need for them to stop. Can't recall any mentions of hydrogen.

Re: Toyota’s hydrogen-powered Mirai has experienced rapid depreciation

#370

Post by roryirvine »

ben_w wrote: post #360
dotancohen wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to Google what is green hydrogen. It is hydrogen produced by electrolysis. If you've already got the electricity for electrolysis, would it not be more efficient and mechanically simpler to store it in a battery and power an electric motor?

> If you've already got the electricity for electrolysis, would it not be more efficient and mechanically simpler to store it in a battery and power an electric motor? Yes, if you actually have the batteries. Between around 2014-2024, the common talking point was "we're not making enough batteries", and the way the discussions went it felt like the internal models of people saying this had the same future projections…

To be fair, there are still plenty of people on HN talking about lack of battery capacity as a reason to delay solar/wind rollout; I suspect it'll take a bit more time for the new reality to sink in fully.

The fossil industry was always suspiciously keen on green hydrogen - partly because the path to green hydrogen would likely have involved a long detour through grey and blue hydrogen, and partly because it gave them an excuse to lobby against phasing out natural gas for domestic heating/cooking ("we need to retain that infrastructure to enable the hydrogen economy!").

You can see the same thing happening in their support for Carbon Capture and Storage - "we're going to need the oil producers to enable carbon sequestration, so we might as well keep drilling new wells to keep their skills fresh!"...

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