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TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

nytimes.com

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Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#361

Post by Quarrelsome »

7tflutter7 wrote: post #297
mylifeandtimes wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A subset of the population doesn't have self control? please fix this to A subset of the population who has not yet reached the age of consent I think society broadly accepts that there are different expectations for children and adults; the line is currently officially drawn somewhere around 18-21 years old.

But in Europe you can drink at 14. Age of consent is also 14. So, no, there is no official line at 18-21. Especially in the EU.

> But in Europe you can drink at 14. Age of consent is also 14.

That is hilariously general. You're conflating a lot of different nations there. In practice; its different depending on the nation, consent is usually 16 and alcohol is ~18.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#362

Post by pinnochio »

comboy wrote: post #356
tock wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tiktok as some weaponized addiction machine It is. > Is it really bad to give me woodworking and learning chinese videos if that's what I'm interested in at the moment? Youtube shorts is pretty similar to tiktok imo. > is it really different if he scrolls through tiktok or watches the same thing put into longer videos on TV or some other site? Yes because TV is just stuff shown to everyone. You aren't getting perso…

People do get addicted to bikes. Not even questionable. But of course that's not a charitable interpretation, and on that - yes I don't think personalized content is comparable to heroin. What is so evil about personalized content? I'm sincerely trying to understand. Your whole argument here is based on the premise that TV is OK because it's not personalized.

Are you a sophist, or have you made any actual attempt to understand the concerns here?

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#363

Post by bdcravens »

zbentley wrote: post #111
bdcravens wrote: post #82

So what's next, Hacker News is illegal because the point system encourages retention?

This kind of absolutism is unhelpful. At every point on the spectrum between "a good app that people choose to spend time on because it's valuable to them" and "heroin marketed to preteens in schools" there is no clear line or delineation between addictive abuse and autonomy. But we still don't let liquor stores sell to kids. We still criminalize a lot of drug use. And while there are tons of different opinions about…

Drugs and alcohol are explicit substances with an explicit definition.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#364

Post by morshu9001 »

SirMaster wrote: post #212
wackget wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's way more complex than "no self control". Social media is addictive by design and is peddled at such scale that it is literally impossible to ignore. It's also backed by billions upon billions of dollars. Pitting the average person up against that, then blaming them for having "no self control" once they inevitably get sucked in is not a remotely fair conclusion.

People keep saying this and yet, I have never used any of these short form video services or really any social media outside of desktop websites like hackernews and reddit. Even on reddit I just subscribe to a few niche and mostly technical subreddits. It seems extremely easy to ignore it all.

It's easy for you and me. At the same time, it doesn't seem right to make a business of intentionally going after the people who get addicted to this, like flavored cigs meant to appeal to teenagers. And these social media companies have a paper trail of internal research on user engagement.

But I'm still wary of the motives behind these bans because they seem to be about controlling information, not addiction.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#366

Post by tock »

comboy wrote: post #356
tock wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tiktok as some weaponized addiction machine It is. > Is it really bad to give me woodworking and learning chinese videos if that's what I'm interested in at the moment? Youtube shorts is pretty similar to tiktok imo. > is it really different if he scrolls through tiktok or watches the same thing put into longer videos on TV or some other site? Yes because TV is just stuff shown to everyone. You aren't getting perso…

People do get addicted to bikes. Not even questionable. But of course that's not a charitable interpretation, and on that - yes I don't think personalized content is comparable to heroin. What is so evil about personalized content? I'm sincerely trying to understand. Your whole argument here is based on the premise that TV is OK because it's not personalized.

Yes my entire argument is that recommendation algorithms are designed to cause addiction. Some incredibly smart people have been working on this and they have succeeded wildly. And without personalised content the problem goes away. And that the problem is most acute in short form video platforms like tiktok, instagram shorts and youtube reels. And yes I do consider it closer to drugs than ..... bikes.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#367

Post by jstummbillig »

tantalor wrote: post #305
Aurornis wrote: post #76

The headline overstates what actually happened. Ironic that they’re using clickbait headlines on an article about a service using tricks to get people to engage with something. They haven’t concluded anything yet. It’s early in the process and they’re opening the process of having TikTok engage and respond. The article starts with a headline the makes it sound like the conclusion was already made, then the more you r…

Which headline are you referring to? The headline on the article is, > Europe Accuses TikTok of ‘Addictive Design’ and Pushes for Change What's overstated about that?

They might be referring to the headline of the hn post which I would agree is a pretty severe misrepresentation.

Re: TikTok's 'addictive design' found to be illegal in Europe

#368

Post by morshu9001 »

7tflutter7 wrote: post #289
gtowey wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about banning design patterns. It's about removing the harmful results they produce. Can you imagine if gambling were allowed to be marketed to children? Especially things like slot machines. We absolutely limit the reach of those "design patterns".

This argument falls apart in the EU though. Where it's legal for 14 year olds to drink alcohol.

That's not because EU countries want people to make their own decisions, it's because not so many people in EU think alcohol is bad for kids.
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