Outlawed by Amazon DRM • Hacker News Board

Re: Outlawed by Amazon DRM

#361

Post by maratd » Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 8:02 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #335

The fact that Amazon can do this is obviously scary, particularly for those with extensive Kindle libraries. Personally I love the idea of ebooks but the publishers are doing their best to kill this market (eg Surface Detail in paperback is $6, as an ebook its $10 WTF?). Now I can't speak to the truth of these claims. I have no inside knowledge but I will say this: be skeptical of such stories. I have seen other stor…

> be skeptical of such stories

Don't be too skeptical. Most of the people on HN had some big company restrict/kill an account by some BigCo at some point.

Microsoft, Google, eBay, PayPal, Amazon, Facebook, etc. handle millions of accounts. They have automated filters that trigger based on specified criteria that kill your account.

Their default response when this happens? Talk to legal. Well, more like write to legal. They don't want to talk to you.

The problem? Microsoft has your operating system, Google has your email, eBay has your stuff, PayPal has your money, Amazon has your books, Facebook has your social life, etc.

And they can yank all of that away.

They don't even press any button. It's triggered automatically by criteria they never disclose beyond a vague TOS.

We need to push for a universal option for arbitration by a 3rd party regarding these sorts of unilateral actions. If anything, it will probably reduce the support and legal costs for all of these companies.

Re: Outlawed by Amazon DRM

#362

Post by bborud » Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 8:04 PM UTC

What did we expect?

When everything works we all ooh and aah over how great Kindle and a thousand other things like it are. When someone tries to bring a more expensive product to market we scoff and criticize and shake our heads.

Well kids, "cheap" has its price, and the price is shitty, impersonal, bullshit customer service. Amazon has been great at customer service for many years in their physical goods-business, but to push cost down for electronic services, this is what you have to expect.

In the future things will be cheap and human interaction will be at a premium.

Re: Outlawed by Amazon DRM

#363

Post by piyush_soni » Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 8:05 PM UTC

msh wrote: post #324

mdasen wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot give away many rights, but what right would you be giving away? A lot of the time (and I'd assume in this case), Amazon is not selling you a copy of the book. As such, the legal rights that come with buying a copy of a book don't apply. Rather, you're purchasing something like "an indefinite, non-exclusive, non-transferrable, revokable license". As I stated in my previous comment, we might want to create a…

If amazon is not selling me a electronic copy of the book it should be illegal for them to call the button doing this transaction "buy".

Might not be. They might just mean buy 'temporary license' or something like that.

Re: Outlawed by Amazon DRM

#364

Post by Strshps1MoreTim » Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 8:14 PM UTC

eclipxe wrote: post #309

yajoe wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One data point: I work on the Kindle and have a pretty good understanding of how the device works. I'm not aware of how to wipe the device remotely. It's possible to revoke licenses for DRM content, but I have no idea how to remove all books. I can't explain how to reproduce what the blog describes happened. If this person did in fact purchase DRM content and Amazon revoked it, then at a minimum the person should get…

You can tell yajoe is an Amazon employee by his use of "SeanDav@" and "randartie@".

Interesting. Do you know why is that? Does it have anything to do with the Lisp roots of Amazon technical might?

Re: Outlawed by Amazon DRM

#365

Post by aw3c2 » Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 8:18 PM UTC

anonymouz wrote: post #303

sunir wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She should next demand a copy of all information Amazon has on her under the Data Protection Act (1998), since that's what the Act is for.

Excellent idea. Though I fear that this will be essentially ignored too (as the recent precedent with Facebook shows). It is very unfortunate that apparently the only way to resolve such cases is to bring them to enough media spotlight, that the corporation involved has to do something to avoid damages to its image.

What Facebook precedent? I only know of the Facebook vs Ireland stuff and that works well.

Re: Outlawed by Amazon DRM

#366

Post by jobu » Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 8:19 PM UTC

maratd wrote: post #361

cletus wrote: post #335

The fact that Amazon can do this is obviously scary, particularly for those with extensive Kindle libraries. Personally I love the idea of ebooks but the publishers are doing their best to kill this market (eg Surface Detail in paperback is $6, as an ebook its $10 WTF?). Now I can't speak to the truth of these claims. I have no inside knowledge but I will say this: be skeptical of such stories. I have seen other stor…

> be skeptical of such stories Don't be too skeptical. Most of the people on HN had some big company restrict/kill an account by some BigCo at some point. Microsoft, Google, eBay, PayPal, Amazon, Facebook, etc. handle millions of accounts. They have automated filters that trigger based on specified criteria that kill your account. Their default response when this happens? Talk to legal. Well, more like write to legal…

Arbitration sounds like a really good idea, but the problem is those arbitration systems are typically paid for by industry, run by industry appointees, and they don't have any incentive to see issues from a consumer point-of-view. I think the solution for books will come from lawsuits and consumer backlash - the same as it did for music.

There are still many problems with the Music industry (and RIAA), but they really are leading the curve for the other content industries. Right now you can purchase DRM-free music for relatively cheap from a number of sources. (Apple, Google, Amazon, as well as many independent publishers and artists)

Re: Outlawed by Amazon DRM

#367

Post by mike-cardwell » Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 8:20 PM UTC

andrewpi wrote: post #319

Apparently Amazon didn't wipe her Kindle: https://twitter.com/webmink/status/260432600814981120

But her account was cancelled and her Kindle is broken, so she can't retrieve any of her books if she gets a new Kindle. Which is practically as bad really.

Re: Outlawed by Amazon DRM

#368

Post by shocks » Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 8:27 PM UTC

maratd wrote: post #361

cletus wrote: post #335

The fact that Amazon can do this is obviously scary, particularly for those with extensive Kindle libraries. Personally I love the idea of ebooks but the publishers are doing their best to kill this market (eg Surface Detail in paperback is $6, as an ebook its $10 WTF?). Now I can't speak to the truth of these claims. I have no inside knowledge but I will say this: be skeptical of such stories. I have seen other stor…

> be skeptical of such stories Don't be too skeptical. Most of the people on HN had some big company restrict/kill an account by some BigCo at some point. Microsoft, Google, eBay, PayPal, Amazon, Facebook, etc. handle millions of accounts. They have automated filters that trigger based on specified criteria that kill your account. Their default response when this happens? Talk to legal. Well, more like write to legal…

Facebook most certainly does not have my social life. D:

Re: Outlawed by Amazon DRM

#369

Post by tinco » Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 8:28 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #335

The fact that Amazon can do this is obviously scary, particularly for those with extensive Kindle libraries. Personally I love the idea of ebooks but the publishers are doing their best to kill this market (eg Surface Detail in paperback is $6, as an ebook its $10 WTF?). Now I can't speak to the truth of these claims. I have no inside knowledge but I will say this: be skeptical of such stories. I have seen other stor…

You make it sound like releasing an ebook is somehow cheaper than releasing a paperback. I think in many cases this does not hold true. As long as ebooks represent a minority of all book sales producing paperbacks will be cheaper to produce than ebooks, just by law of mass production.

Re: Outlawed by Amazon DRM

#370

Post by tjoff » Mon, Oct 22, 2012, 8:36 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #335

The fact that Amazon can do this is obviously scary, particularly for those with extensive Kindle libraries. Personally I love the idea of ebooks but the publishers are doing their best to kill this market (eg Surface Detail in paperback is $6, as an ebook its $10 WTF?). Now I can't speak to the truth of these claims. I have no inside knowledge but I will say this: be skeptical of such stories. I have seen other stor…

Is there any conceivable scenario where this is in any way excusable?

Deny continued service? Sure (though hardly in the way that is portrayed in the post, you must be able to know why and contest it). Remotely brick hardware and deletion of user data? Never, ever, ever. No - don't even think about thinking about it. NO.