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European Alternatives

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Re: European Alternatives

#361

Post by kergonath »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #349
aucisson_masque wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are paying more for everything because your country is extremely anti social, people alone have no leverage to negotiate prices with visa, pharmaceutics and so on. Trump is only pushing that « free for all » policy even more, I wouldn’t expect to see things improve for you. Instead of fixing your country and making the rich accountable, you’re being manipulated to look elsewhere. Anyway, I believe that the eu cut…

Yes, I am very happy to see Europe develop its own military-industrial complex. That way, whenever something bad happens in the world, you will be "complicit" if you sit by, and "imperialist" if you take action. It's a lot of fun!

Come on, it’s already been that way for more than a century. Old imperial powers cannot do a thing or its opposite without endless recriminations. We’re used to it.

Re: European Alternatives

#364

Post by kergonath »

loehnsberg wrote: post #27

Isn't it sad that we now have Russian, Chinese, American, European, etc alternatives? I mean I get it, Sept 11 paved the way for FISA orders and NSA overreach, Russia and China reverted back into dictatorship, but Europe is also at the edge. Shouldn't we rather fight that nationalistic power grab that just makes us all poorer and less free? And instead propagate global alternatives that are not subjected by some powe…

> Shouldn't we rather fight that nationalistic power grab that just makes us all poorer and less free?

We should not; we must. But at the same time we need to recognise that we are powerless to affect the American government, which can go rogue at any moment. So from a pure risk analysis, we also need to have local alternatives. I regret this state of affairs, but it is an unavoidable consequence of the US threatening its nominal allies.

Re: European Alternatives

#365

Post by hermanzegerman »

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #348
hermanzegerman wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, so you're mad that your country is too stupid to regulate it's own business? The regulation also forced all merchants to accept Visa/MC without being able to surcharge a fee for it. Both Companies are quite happy with that deal as it boasted the adoption for their cards across Europe

See this illustrates my point. The "soft power" talking point I sometimes see from Europeans is a complete lie. The idea is that giving Europe relatively favorable terms will cause Europe to regard the US well is a fabrication. In reality, giving Europe favorable terms just causes Europeans to view Americans as suckers.

As the other guy said you're completely deluded. Nobody "gave" us cheaper credit card fees from MasterCard or Visa. They were the result of a regulatory process.

MasterCard or Visa also aren't operating as a charity in Europe.

Before the capping of fees was introduced, their acceptance was shit at most businesses, and most bank consumers also didn't have one, as opposed to cards of the national scheme which had lower fees both for customers and merchants

Re: European Alternatives

#366

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

kergonath wrote: post #359
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See this illustrates my point. The "soft power" talking point I sometimes see from Europeans is a complete lie. The idea is that giving Europe relatively favorable terms will cause Europe to regard the US well is a fabrication. In reality, giving Europe favorable terms just causes Europeans to view Americans as suckers.

You are deluded. Nobody "gave Europe a sweet deal". Those are the rules of the land. Companies are free to reject them, in which case they just cannot do business here. We did not force them to come. The fact that they are still obviously making tons of money in the EU should tell you how you are being taken advantage of.

So you acknowledge that this point about "protection money" (the point I was originally responding to) is nonsense then. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46736657

Re: European Alternatives

#367

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

kergonath wrote: post #356
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When European customers pay American firms, it's "protection money". When American customers pay European firms, it's just capitalism, sorry bro.

You’re twisting words at this point. Visa and Mastercard are a duopoly and neither of them are afraid to use their power to cut off money flows towards entities they disapprove of. It’s an intrinsic risk and a big issue for sovereignty. The situation is very different for pharmaceuticals, a lot of which are American. The short story is, the American healthcare system is broken and very expensive for the results it pr…

I was responding to this comment about how Visa/Mastercard fees are supposedly "protection money": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46736657

If US firm profits in Europe are "protection money" then EU firm profits in the US should also be added to the ledger.

Re: European Alternatives

#368

Post by kergonath »

lava_pidgeon wrote: post #315
whilenot-dev wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Isn't it sad that we now have Russian, Chinese, American, European, etc alternatives? [...] Shouldn't we rather fight that nationalistic power grab [...] While I agree with your sentiment, European and nationalistic are two contradicting positions, unlike the other three mentioned superpowers.

What is nation is not a objective question. People can define Europe as nation and then you can have an nationalistic Europe.

> People can define Europe as nation and then you can have a nationalistic Europe.

Right, it they do not. You’d have to stretch the definition of nation beyond its breaking point for Europe to be a nation. It would include Russia and Ukraine, Finland and Greece, none of these nations have much in common.

Re: European Alternatives

#370

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

hermanzegerman wrote: post #365
0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See this illustrates my point. The "soft power" talking point I sometimes see from Europeans is a complete lie. The idea is that giving Europe relatively favorable terms will cause Europe to regard the US well is a fabrication. In reality, giving Europe favorable terms just causes Europeans to view Americans as suckers.

As the other guy said you're completely deluded. Nobody "gave" us cheaper credit card fees from MasterCard or Visa. They were the result of a regulatory process. MasterCard or Visa also aren't operating as a charity in Europe. Before the capping of fees was introduced, their acceptance was shit at most businesses, and most bank consumers also didn't have one, as opposed to cards of the national scheme which had lower…

So initially MasterCard/Visa profits in Europe are "protection money".

Then it comes out that MasterCard/Visa fees in Europe are actually far lower than in the US.

Now the Europeans are laughing at the Americans for being suckers.

This interaction basically sums up the entire EU/US relationship and the absurdity of Europe's rhetoric around it. Copy/paste this template, change a few words, and it applies pretty much everywhere.

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