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I'm returning my Framework 16

yorickpeterse.com

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#361

Post by johnnyanmac »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #247
paulddraper wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an insane take. The number of MacBooks I’ve seen shipped back to repair center for weeks, over a single non functional key, is astonishing.

But how common of a problem is this, now that Apple is well clear of the butterfly keyboard mess? I haven’t had to get my MacBooks repaired even once in the past decade and change, and that’s despite two of the machines I’d used during that time being the butterfly/touch bar models! That being said, yes it’d be better if such a repair were quick and easy, but I’m not sure that it’s so valuable as to justify battery l…

> I’m not sure that it’s so valuable as to justify battery life being around a third what my MacBooks get or wrestling a buggy, immature BIOS and all the issues that come with that.

It is to me, given my 15 odd years of using Windows and Linux instead of Mac. I'm not even liking windows much these days, but I've never had a situation where I was forced to use a Mac.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#362

Post by goku12 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #334
goku12 wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Judging reparability and serviceability the same way as you do with other features is absurd, to put it charitably! It is one feature that you rarely use, but brings you huge value when you do use it. You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by progressively upgrading t…

> I talked about this just two days ago. Unlike how you project it, that ideal is entirely feasible if there was enough investment and a large enough market. Instead, OEMs inflict the opposite on the consumers who take it all in without pushing back. These companies choose and spread suboptimal designs that suit their interests and then insist that it is the only viable way forward. It's absurd that consumers also re…

Even more unimaginative dismissals are not what I wish to debate. I have already explained why this argument is disingenuous at best. Apple's model isn't the best. It just appears so because these companies never put significant effort into better alternatives and the consumers never demanded it. I keep trying to point this out - this is a repeated misdirection tactic employed by these companies and their fans.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#363

Post by Xlr8head »

cosmic_cheese wrote: post #182
comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy t…

Are Frameworks even upgradeable enough to enable the same kind of upgrading in the typical upgrade window as one would get buying a new machine? This means replacing nearly everything except the chassis, keyboard, and screen.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#364

Post by johnnyanmac »

llmslave2 wrote: post #145
Levitating wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if they're forced to buy it. Framework offers repairable laptops at a fixed price. To some the repairability adds enough value to warrant the higher prices, to some it doesn't. (As well as customizability and mainline Linux kernel support). I've found that if you're in the habit of repairing laptops, Frameworks may come cheap to you as you might have spare storage a…

> Right? People claim that the pricing is "absurd" as if they're forced to buy it. This happens all the time, especially with Apple. Complaints about the inability to side load or use alternative stores for example. Nobody forced you to buy it. It's stupid when people do it for Apple and it's stupid when they do it for Framework.

I'd say comparing hardware vs software is very different. If there were 5+ competing OS's with decent market share, maybe you'd have a point there. But the reality is that mobile software is controlled by 2 trillionaire tech companies that made use of anti-competitive measures to prevent consumer alternatives.

Heck maybe even 3. The desktop scene doesn't feel that much better, but them all allowing "sideloading" as we call it today alleviates full control of the OS.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#365

Post by johnnyanmac »

Lio wrote: post #357
jimmaswell wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My partner with a Macbook works on AI and has told me how great Apple silicon is, and their Macbook would run so many things so well.. except they don't have enough RAM and there's no way to upgrade it..

I’m in the same boat as your partner except that I generally max the RAM in my laptop when buying it. The thing is it would probably be the same issue with a Framework or any other brand of laptop as they all have some final limit on RAM or GPU RAM. If you upgrade the GPU or motherboard you have to ask what will happen to the old one. You can reuse some of them but most probably will just be e-waste. There’s a chance…

I'm a hoarder so I'd just keep it around. I still have my Playstation 2 after all.

Every laptop except my first college one is also somewhere around my house. Even my $300 high school laptop that could really only run Microsoft Word (I remember running Fallout 3 on it at lowest settings at a brisk 10 fps). Even for that college laptop I salvaged the storage, ram, and disk drive.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#366

Post by Dylan16807 »

goku12 wrote: post #330
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Reliable machines rarely need repairs outside of owner mistreatment, and most people I know who are technically capable enough to care about upgrading generally do it maybe once every 4-6 years, by which point hardware has usually advanced far enough that buying a new laptop is easy t…

> The crux of the matter is that even if one values upgradability and repairability, neither is a frequent need for practically anybody. Judging reparability and serviceability the same way as you do with other features is absurd, to put it charitably! It is one feature that you rarely use, but brings you huge value when you do use it. You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by progressively upgrading t…

> You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by progressively upgrading the same desktop PC for two to three generations instead of throwing away the whole PC and buying a new one each time. This dismissal of the feature is bizarrely shortsighted.

The main things I keep long term are the drives and power supply, and those can be kept on most laptops too.

In the medium term I get a lot of use out of separately upgrading CPU and GPU, but most frameworks can't do that. The 16 gets half a point in that category because the options are still very limited.

A Framework lets me keep the same screen which is cool. And it lets me keep the same chassis which is not as beneficial if it's not a particularly good chassis.

If I'm generous, the extra flexibility in a Framework would save me $200 every 5-8 years. Which leaves me in the hole, further if I'm less generous.

I hope they reach a scale where they can price things better, and I'm willing to pay some extra for what they do, but not as much as they currently charge. Looking at Framework's site I can get the same specs as the author for $1800. Lenovo offers a model with a worse screen but otherwise the same specs for $600. Gigabyte has a fully matching model plus bonus GPU for $1150, and for half of November it was on sale for $1000. And if you want an RTX 5070 then Framework is $2500 and Gigabyte is $1350.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#367

Post by johnnyanmac »

osigurdson wrote: post #224
trinsic2 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO I dont think people are considering what you lose when you cant upgrade, You get locked in to a device artificially created life cycle that's dictated by the manufacturer. I understand where you are coming from, I guess it just makes me sad to see more and more people moving away from tech that is less in their control. And i consider upgradability and modularity and important aspect of that.

Is it artificial though, really? You buy whatever is available now and it eventually becomes obsolete and you have to buy a new one. Maybe there is some kind of multi vendor collusion going on but it doesn't seem that likely. Where I think repairability really makes sense is in things that don't materially improve and should last 30 years (e.g. appliances).

If there's an ability to upgrade my GPU 3 years in but I can't, then yes. It's artificial. We just got way too comfortable with the mentality of throwing out everything and getting new cheap tech overtime.

I guess the one thing AI is doing that's good for this scene will be to make people value what they have more.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#368

Post by johnnyanmac »

cycomanic wrote: post #242
trinsic2 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO I think its not helpful to be comparing Framework's price to whats currently on the market. You are paying for sustainability. If you are doing this I think you are missing the point. This isn't a apples to apples comparison. I also feel the frustration of the parent, and I also see that many people don't want to pay or consider the ramifications of where we we are at right now in this given time. Most devices a…

> IMHO I think its not helpful to be comparing Framework's price to whats currently on the market. You are paying for sustainability. But is it really more sustainable to have a poor quality but easily repairable/swappable laptop where you had to exchange multiple parts over e.g. 10 years, compared to a high quality laptop that lasted the full 10 years and didn't need any repairs? And that is not unusual, my 10 year…

If you have this mythical laptop that lasts 10 years, let me know. Meanwhile, I don't think the GT 1050m from my 2015 laptop would truly have been that competitive today. And it sure did need several repairs to last the 4-ish years it did get.

I'll admit my bias as a gamer and game dev, though. My industry more or less requires a stronger machine by default and the line shifts quickly. Even my decent GTX 3080m is starting to fall behind a bit. But not as drastically as the Moore's law era.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#369

Post by AnthonyMouse »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #335
wpm wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me wonder, does Apple have some insane patent on unibody construction? The pre-Retina unibody MacBook Pros were easily upgradable and very solid. They had a ton of room in the chassis, and hell, the first year of them the battery was toollessly removable. Aside from the keyboard and the screen, it was all latches and a few common Phillips #00's. Why have no manufacturers copied this obviously great construct…

I think the costs of milling a solid piece of aluminum that precisely and in those quantities can be “it”. https://youtu.be/lJx6cF-H__I I am not an expert, but it seems to be an engineering achievement, given that no one else does it. I doubt milling methods are patent protected, but rather Apple can use its volume and vertical integration to drive costs down and spend more on the chassis than other laptop designers.

Apple is #4 in laptop sales. Lenovo, Dell and HP each have at least as much volume. Apple also has higher margins than those companies, implying that any cost savings they make on other components aren't making it into the price anyway.

It's probably just that it costs a little more to do it and most customers wouldn't pay a premium to have it.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#370

Post by johnnyanmac »

safety1st wrote: post #304
comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

I want Framework to succeed, but the author's objection isn't unreasonable: > For a premium price I expect a premium laptop, but the Framework 16 feels more like a €1200-€1500 laptop at best... two thousand Euros for this kind of laptop is just absurd For most people the long-term total cost of ownership is going to be a major factor when they consider a more repairable laptop. Sure, generating less e-waste is nice,…

>But interest in this level of reusability is a pretty niche market.

We're getting to a point where some people don't even have a laoptop in their household. I think "serving a niche", especially one willing to pay 1000+ for tech, isn't a bad thing here. The tech required for browsing internet and streaming videos doesn't need to spend more than $500, or even get a windows/mac.Chromebooks will happily cut into that entry level market.

This is all before mentioning how memory prices will only make the problem worse for all consumer electronics.

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