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Micron Announces Exit from Crucial Consumer Business

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Re: Micron Announces Exit from Crucial Consumer Business

#361
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because the SSD business was little more than a carbon copy of most other consumer non Samsung or SK/Solidigm brands. They've been phison controller with some cheap NAND flash with a different coat of paint for generations now, or in the case of the portable/external ones, that plus a 3rd party enclosure and IO module that they'd contracted out. In terms of hardware, this sub-business-unit was no more "Micron"…

All the higher margin non consumer markets are moving away from socketed ram for integrated ram for performance and manufacturing cost reasons. It’s hard to see what the motivation for spending some of their limited foundry time on products that are only of interest to lower margin direct consumers if this keeps up

> All the higher margin non consumer markets are moving away from socketed ram for integrated ram

Absolutely, positively, wildly untrue. Just because there is a boom in memory-on-package designs doesn't mean the market is moving away from expandable/socketable memory. The opposite is true. It's supplementing it because we're trying to cram as much ram as possible into things, not because we're trying to reduce it.

There has never been more demand for RAM. Many of the memory-on-compute/memory-on-package designs are going into systems with socketable ram. Those systems btw have never had more memory channels/slots available. Intel just cancelled their 8 Channel SKU's for their upcoming Xeon parts because their partners pretty much all universally told them they'd be buying the 16 channel variants instead, because demand is so high, and that's not unique to Intel. AMD and Ampere are seeing and responding to similar demands, by continuing to increase their supported memory channels/memory capacities.

> and manufacturing cost reasons.

This generally increases price, even when using things like LPDDR, especially as the capacity of the packaged RAM goes up (the fact that this can't be replaced makes yield issues a big concern whereas in socketable RAM it's effectively a non-issue). There are ways that it can be used for cost effectiveness, but those applications are generally not "high margin" nor are cost-sensitive applications of this deploying a lot of SKU's to cater the wide variety of demand in type/speed/capacity (eg (LP)DDR vs GDDR vs HBM and all the variations therein, not to mention buffered vs unbuffered, Load reduced, computational, storage class etc), because even with the chiplet/modular production of CPU's, that is not a linear scale up of cost-to-manufacture (or engineer) as complexity goes up. This isn't like Cores on a CPU where you can just disable some if there's a manufacturing defect, you need to swap memory controllers and scale qty of those controllers and use different kinds of DMA interlinks depending on the ram type (can't just swap HBM for DDR and expect everything to work)

For most performance oriented products, the memory-on-package thing is a new layer of RAM that sits between the cache of the compute unit (CPU/DPU/Whatever) and traditional socketable DRAM, not as a replacement for it. There are very real thermal and packaging limits though. For example, how are you going to install 2TB of DDR directly onto a CPU package? How are you going to cool it when teh available surface area is a fraction of what it is with socketable RAM and you're theoretically hitting it even harder by leveraging the lower latency while placing it so close to the compute that's using it, that even if the RAM is idle it's still subject to far more heatsoak than equivalent socketable RAM is?

This is further substantiated by the demand for things like CXL which allows you to further expand RAM by installing it to the PCIe bus (and thus, through things like RDMA/RoCE, through the network fabric) like you would any other PCIe add in card, which is leading to an explosion in something called Storage Class Memory (SCM), so that we can deploy more socketable/expandable/replacable RAM to systems/clusters/fabrics than ever before.

I could go on and on actually, but I'm not trying to attack you, and this post is long enough. If interested, I could continue to expand on this. But the point is, memory-on-package designs aren't replacing socketable memory in high margin markets they're supplementing it, as a direct result of demand for RAM being so astronomical and there being multiple hard limits on how much RAM you can cram into a single package effectively. The last thing people want is less RAM or less choice in RAM. The RAM itself may evolve (eg SOCAMM, Computational Memory, MCR, SCM etc), but socketable/replaceable/expandable memory is not going away.

EDIT:

> It’s hard to see what the motivation for spending some of their limited foundry time on products that are only of interest to lower margin direct consumers if this keeps up

This is a fair concern, but entirely independent of the first part of your comment. Worth noting that just because Samsung is the only game in town left selling consumer DIMMs (at least in the US), doesn't mean that the consumer market isn't getting supplied. Micron, Samsung and SK are all still selling DRAM components to consumer facing brands (like Corsair, Gskill, Geil). It's entirely possible they may reconsider that, but consumers aren't the only ones with volume demand for DDR4/DDR5 DRAM UDIMM's. OEM's like DEll, HP, etc and various SI's all have considerable volume demand for them as well, and combined with consumer demand, does place considerable pressure on those companies not to fully exit supplying the market - even if they chose to only do it indirectly going forward.

Re: Micron Announces Exit from Crucial Consumer Business

#362

I'm sad. I'm a software guy, not much of a hardware expert, so please bear with me if I"m too pessimistic. However, I feel that if trends like this continue, it might be the end of enthusiast-level personal computing as we know it. No more being able to head down to the electronics store and purchase RAM, motherboards, processors, GPUs, storage, and other components. We're going to be limited to locked-down terminals…

It's not just market forces. Computers are actually too subversive for the powers that be to allow mere citizens to have them. Give citizens computers and they have encryption. This alone gives them a fighting chance against police, judges, three letter agencies, militaries. Give citizens computers and they can wipe out entire sectors of the economy via the sheer power of unrestricted copying. The future is bleak. Co…

Alright this might be taking things a little too far… the free software movement is stronger than it’s ever been and hardware is also more accessible than it’s ever been. Losing this one company is simply not a death bell of the entire enthusiast computing market.

Re: Micron Announces Exit from Crucial Consumer Business

#363

What a disaster for Micron. Having a consumer facing brand is 'crucial' for brand awareness. Micron is the smallest of the big 3 in DRAM and the only one in America. They're going to be swallowed up and replaced by CXMT.

Micron had infinite brand awareness in the electronics industry long before they made SSDs. Heck they don't even use their own name for those products. They've been a memory vendor for more than 40 years and they're the only vendor with US domestic memory fabs. Something tells me their future will be just fine. Disclosure: Micron stock holder.

Every low end IoT box made in china will be 'encouraged' to use CXMT aided by state subsidies. This will shrink the market for market price DRAM. When the AI bubble pops DRAM makers will discover the importance of diversification.

Re: Micron Announces Exit from Crucial Consumer Business

#364
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how it works. Crucial winding down doesn't mean that there's less flash fabs in the world, just like there are plenty of DRAM companies that sell to the consumer market that don't have their own flash fabs (Corsair, Gskill, Geil, etc). Those consumer oriented brands bought flash from Micron (not crucial), SK (also doesn't have a consumer facing DRAM brand), and Samsung. That's just as true today as it will…

I am not sure if I understood your comment correctly but from my stand point Sk Hynix definitely has a consumer facing brand : https://pcpartpicker.com/products/memory/#xcx=0&m=444

Technically you're right, they do. They don't really serve the US Consumer market (anymore) though. There's no (or comparatively very few) established sales channels with consumer retail vendors by SKHynix themselves in the USDM. It's all reseller stuff, often plucked from OEM devices (prebuilts, workstations, etc).

What you linked is OEM RAM. The enterprise market still uses lots of UDIMM's, even though it certainly favors RDIMMs. Yes, it's DDR UDIMM's that are compatible with consumer PC's. But it's not sold like Samsung or Crucial consumer-oriented memory is, at least in the US market. Check the availability of it compared to say Crucial or Samsung. It's virtually non-existant. Check the comments on that very site as well, note how many people are talking about getting them from pre-builts (aka OEM/SI). Note, SK selling UDIMMs to SI/OEM's for consumer products is not a "consumer transaction" to SK, that's a B2B enterprise sale to another company from SK's perspective.

So technically yes, but practically no, not in the US they don't. Elsewhere I'm unsure, but SK has been deprioritizing consumer DRAM sales for a while now, just like Micron.

Re: Micron Announces Exit from Crucial Consumer Business

#367
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're not selling off the business, they're totally exiting it. From what I understand, OpenAI just bought out a significant proportion of the capacity of Samsung and Hynix, which is the big reason prices just spiked. They're two of the three DRAM manufacturers, Micron being the third. That gives us a good idea as to what Micron is doing here: They have contracts with their other customers to supply DRAM at whate…

> Moreover, the supply constraint isn't likely to be permanent, and whenever prices come back down then Micron would still own the brand and could start selling under it again, which they couldn't if they sold it. Why not just announce limited supply, then, instead of exiting? This seems like a "automaker invests more in financing arm, because it's the most profitable" concentration mistake, towards an industry with…

They can spin it back up once the bubble pops.

Re: Micron Announces Exit from Crucial Consumer Business

#368
post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're not selling off the business, they're totally exiting it. From what I understand, OpenAI just bought out a significant proportion of the capacity of Samsung and Hynix, which is the big reason prices just spiked. They're two of the three DRAM manufacturers, Micron being the third. That gives us a good idea as to what Micron is doing here: They have contracts with their other customers to supply DRAM at whate…

> Moreover, the supply constraint isn't likely to be permanent, and whenever prices come back down then Micron would still own the brand and could start selling under it again, which they couldn't if they sold it. Why not just announce limited supply, then, instead of exiting? This seems like a "automaker invests more in financing arm, because it's the most profitable" concentration mistake, towards an industry with…

> Why not just announce limited supply, then, instead of exiting?

Because it would be a lie. The amount of supply they're planning to allocate to Crucial in the near future is zero. Keeping the website up as a place you can go and order nothing would only mislead people into thinking they should come back in a few days when they're restocked, when that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

> This seems like a "automaker invests more in financing arm, because it's the most profitable" concentration mistake, towards an industry with wide concerns over intermediate term financial sustainability.

Their business is manufacturing DRAM. Also selling it at retail makes sense most of the time because they get the retailer's margin too, but it doesn't right now, and that's the side business.

Re: Micron Announces Exit from Crucial Consumer Business

#369

To be fair, the market has to be impacted by the Shift to non-upgradable devices. At least in my house, most of the computers can't be upgraded with Crucial parts, because they use Apple Silicon.

Disagree. has very little to do with it. Though it finally clicked why I keep seeing people repeat this, it's Apple users. (Not a dig btw, I can totally see why it'd feel that way from their POV).

For starters, in the past, Crucial RAM wasn't really compatible with the Apple devices that did have socketable/upgradeable RAM. Technically some of their laptops/imacs did, but Apple really didn't want you servicing/upgrading those on your own, Crucial DIMMs weren't QVL approved by Apple (even though it'd generally work), and those were all SO-DIMMs not standard desktop DIMMs. The Mac Pros and what not that had upgradeable ram were all (L)RDIMM, not UDIMM. Crucial didn't make (L)RDIMM, that was Micron's market. Point being, this change in dynamic from Apple had virtually no impact on Crucial, as it was a market they never really served, or at least certainly not in the past decade.

The consumer market isn't shifting to non-upgradeable devices. There are more and more of them, but they're largely either not a market Crucial served to begin with (Apple), or supplementing the consumer devices that do have upgradeable RAM (Steam Deck, very compact HTPC's/Thin Clients, things that aren't really desktop replacements).

Re: Micron Announces Exit from Crucial Consumer Business

#370

I'm sad. I'm a software guy, not much of a hardware expert, so please bear with me if I"m too pessimistic. However, I feel that if trends like this continue, it might be the end of enthusiast-level personal computing as we know it. No more being able to head down to the electronics store and purchase RAM, motherboards, processors, GPUs, storage, and other components. We're going to be limited to locked-down terminals…

This isn't "we are only going to sell products to big companies" nor is it "we are only going to make products that are locked down appliances"... the "consumer" versions of these products are just cheaper unreliable parts that lack the error correction or power loss protection of the enterprise parts, and in a world where we routinely have disks with tens of terabytes of storage in computers with a terabyte of memory, the argument for why "consumer" grade parts can even make sense to exist is pretty weak. It maybe sucks that, in the very short term, there will be a quick uptick in prices, but focusing on the better parts will also help bring their prices down... and, fwiw, they really aren't that bad to begin with: you can build a micro-ATX machine with a Xeon or an EPYC in it for what feels like a pretty reasonable price.
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