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Some people can't see mental images

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Re: Some people can't see mental images

#361

Post by altruios »

nevertoolate wrote: post #232
altruios wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people can project the image of an apple into the real world. As in, they are able to imagine an apple on the table that they see with their eyes. They 'see' it, but see that it's a projection. It's a lot like when you have two very similar images (except one change), and you cross your eyes such that they overlap to highlight the change (it's ghostly, as it's only seen in one eye). Same Idea, only instead of th…

I suspect that much more people can do it than unable to do it (aphantasia)

I have a suspicion that aphantasia - in some cases - is something that can be trained out of. The mind is a powerful thing.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#362

Post by tstrimple »

lordnacho wrote: post #277
Matterless wrote: post #266

I don't know why I'm surprised every time to see so many people astounded in the comments every time another of these articles come out. I guess I thought by now this phenomenon would be more common knowledge... I'm a non-seer and a non-self speaker. That is, I do not have any clear monologue whatsoever, nor can I visualize anything at all. However, I have a pretty great memory, just not for the experience of things,…

Well, I have another question further down to another guy about how he imagines sex, I guess you can answer that as well. But also, how do you solve math problems? Often the you need to draw a graph and look at some crossing points. For me, I can conjure up a video in my mind similar to 3B1B, and I use that to think about the problem. It can even get complicated enough that it would take me a while to draw on paper.…

Not the person you asked, but as someone who also cannot see mental images at all I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "imagines sex". I don't really imagine sex and self-gratification is usually not worth it without visual aids. The times I pull from memory, it's more about the overall experience rather than visualizing anything specific.

As far as math goes, I've always been pretty good at it. I generally don't think about graphs at all in mathematics. That's something I associate with learning math more than I associate it with "doing math". The only time I'm reaching for more complicated math is in a computer science context so I'm rarely trying to solve anything other than arithmetic or rough approximations in my head.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#364

Post by jessyco »

ectospheno wrote: post #363

I tried telling people I couldn’t. I don’t mention it anymore because inevitably there is a person who doesn’t believe me and won’t stop trying to argue I’m wrong.

I believe you, It think I'm also the same; however for me at least, I feel like I can "think" of what something looks like. This is hard to explain since its very "personal" way its easier to say "i can see a square" nope I can't see anything but I can "think" of a square.

The whole imagine a ball in your mind. Now tell me what colour it is. No idea you tell me :D I can pretend and make up a color or go with what my gut tells me which is the most common color my brain was probably trained on.(red). but in reality I don't see any ball.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#365

Post by zephyrthenoble »

roxolotl wrote: post #299
zephyrthenoble wrote: post #60

I think an interesting different way to talk about aphantasia is not, "Can you see an apple when you close your eyes" but more along the linked of, "Can you mentally edit the visual reality you see?" A common exercise while being in the back seat of a car while I was young was to imagine someone in a skateboard riding along the power lines on the side of the road, keeping pace with our car. It's not literally overrid…

As someone who has aphantasia I did the same thing, but with motes of dust on the window. I’d stare at a single bit of dust or dirt and move my head up and down to make the dirt move with the landscape. It’s funny to read these stories because it solidifies my assumption that I have aphantasia. I did the same thing as a child just without the imagery.

This is super interesting to me. A lot of threads about aphantasia devolve into both sides being mildly incredulous that the other exists, I think partially because it's _hard_ for us to imagine experiences outside of our own.

But here, I feel like we have a clear delineation of the differences between experiences, in a non-abstract way... and that feels more valuable to me, somehow.

Thank you for sharing!

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#366

Post by bricesor »

jmhammond wrote: post #353
oceanplexian wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's pretty important to realize you are if in fact you are---ideally as early in your educational process as possible. Is that because it’s hereditary or instead something that was missing in early childhood? Like as a toddler you were never given one of those games where you fit shapes into different sized holes for example?

I think it’s because you can find supports to help you learn. I’ve been teaching math for almost 18 years at this point, and only a couple years ago learned that I lean towards aphantasia. Back in high school, geometry was HARD. Calc 3 was HARD. It was presented as visualize and imagine, and I tried my best. It just turns out other people could do that, and the fuzzy thing thing (or, more commonly, the ‘bulleted list…

Do you have any advice for an experienced engineer who is considering changing careers to teaching high school math? I hear horror stories about teaching kids nowadays, with most having smartphones in class and AI use being rampant. Do you think there’s truth to that, or is it overblown?

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#367

Post by armonster »

vanadium1st wrote: post #312
dekhn wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about people who can look at something and then draw it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wiltshire Do they have to recall specific areas, or do they perceive the entire thing as a fully instantiated mental image.

Glad that you used this exact example! This guy doesn’t have a photorealistic memory. At least it’s far from as good as it’s claimed to be. He’s an artist proficient in a particular style - better than most, but not superhuman. When he’s not drawing from a direct reference, he’s simply making up details based on assumptions, not on photorealistic memory. Here’s a good example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyPqQIHk…

This is called building your 'catalogue' in art, especially concept art. In order to draw something (well) from imagination, you should draw it from reference many times. Then when you draw from imagination, your brain will pull from what it knows. And since you studied the subjects, the textures, the shapes, etc, so well, you will have that stored away and will be able to do so.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#368

Post by agentcoops »

oceanplexian wrote: post #345
agentcoops wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comically, though, programming communities really seem to have a statistical over representation of both aphantasics and hyperphantasics. One of these articles comes out every few years and I've witnessed at numerous workplaces how quickly a large portion of the engineers realize they're aphantasic and everyone else is aghast that they can't rotate complete architectural diagrams etc. That said, it really is binary o…

> I think it's pretty important to realize you are if in fact you are---ideally as early in your educational process as possible. Is that because it’s hereditary or instead something that was missing in early childhood? Like as a toddler you were never given one of those games where you fit shapes into different sized holes for example?

The question of origin is still pretty unclear. There seems to be a tension between things that are more developmental (if you have mental imagery, for example, you seem to be able to get better or worse) and those that are likely genetic (research does suggest a connection between aphantasia and autism spectrum etc).

As someone said below, I suggested figuring it out early is best because of a lot of things that just work differently, especially in learning. There seems to be a real selection bias that most people who learned they were aphantasic reading a New Yorker article, say, by definition figured out how to make it work somewhere along the line. Aphantasia isn’t at all a learning disability in a real sense, but you definitely have to approach things differently.

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#369

Post by gxs »

I wonder if this explains at all why I've never had the need to diagram anything before I build it - whether it be software or something concrete like a cabinet - I just don't

I work very much like my dad, as I build I just refer to the image in my head

On the other hand, some people keep meticulous notes and diagrams about what they are going to do

This isn't a knock - I have some very sharp co-workers that do better work in some areas even than myself who need to compulsively diagram/take notes

Each has its pros and cons. For me the pros are I can get to building super quickly. It means on a microlevel I can explain things to people who will help with the build in great detail and make sure they "build the right thing"

On the other hand, the con is communicating at a macro level. I don't have anything diagrammed out typically, or notes even, so sometimes it feels to people like they are working with a black box and I have to make a conscious effort to document and diagram

Interesting stuff

For the people here debating whether they have it or not: my take away from many years of therapy is that when it comes to mental stuff like this, it's pretty much just whatever you say it is and how much it impacts your life

If you think you have OCD but it's not interfering with your day to day life, you're probably fine, even if you feel like it's overboard

On the other hand, even mild OCD can be devastating to a different person if they feel like it's making their life hell

So while not quite the same thing, if you think you have aphantasia and you think it's to the point where it's affecting your life in one way or another, than you probably do

If you think you have it but you don't really notice/care and feel like you get by just fine, then you might or might not

Moral of the story is that I hope it's just a thought exercise for you and nothing you're sweating about

Re: Some people can't see mental images

#370

Post by nofriend »

the_af wrote: post #347
nofriend wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my opinion, the fact erotic literature exists is proof aphantasia is not normal. Words cannot be arousing if you cannot imagine things "in your mind's eye". The opposite seems to follow? erotic literature is proof you don't need images to be aroused.

Hmm, no? The words must elicit images and sensations, otherwise they wouldn't work as erotica. Words are just words. If you cannot picture what they are describing, you cannot get aroused.

> If you cannot picture what they are describing, you cannot get aroused.

This is your thesis. In the first place, the existence of erotic literature doesn't prove this is true, like you claimed. I would furthermore claim that it calls this assumption into question. If the goal was imagery, the more straightforward approach would be to draw an image. If that wasn't possible, you would instead describe the image you wanted to draw in words in great detail. But this isn't at all what most erotica consists of.

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