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Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

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Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#361

Post by 1718627440 »

j45 wrote: post #115
aerhardt wrote: post #26

I'm surprised by how much I prefer prepending "uv" to everything instead of activating environments - which is still naturally an option if that's what floats your boat. I also like how you can manage Python versions very easily with it. Everything feels very "batteries-included" and yet local to the project. I still haven't used it long enough to tell whether it avoids the inevitable bi-yearly "debug a Python enviro…

This isn't a comment just about Python.. but it should just work. There shouldn't be constant ceremony for getting and keeping environments running.

It does, Python has essentially solved it for years.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#362

Post by ModernMech »

wiseowise wrote: post #321
ModernMech wrote: post #266

Honestly though it's a pretty rough indictment of Python that the best thing to happen in a decade is that people started writing Python tools in Rust. Not even a little Rust, uv is 98% Rust. I mean, they just released 3.14 and that was supposed to be a pretty big deal.

Who cares what it is written in?

It's called dogfooding -- writing tools for the language in the language. Not doing so here, where the result is "best thing to happen to the ecosystem in a decade", is a tacit admission that Python isn't up for the task of writing best-in-class Python tooling (the use of Rust wasn't incidental). Having seen uv, people will probably start writing more Python-ecosystem projects in Rust.

Which is fine, Python is not for everything.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#363

Post by mr_mitm »

XorNot wrote: post #222
LeoPanthera wrote: post #18

For single-file Python scripts, which 99% of mine seem to be, you can simplify your life immensely by just putting this at the top of the script: #!/usr/bin/env -S uv run --script # /// script # requires-python = ">=3.11" # dependencies = [ "modules", "here" ] # /// The script now works like a standalone executable, and uv will magically install and use the specified modules.

I use this but I hate it. I want to be able to ship a bundle which needs zero network access to run, but will run. It is still frustratingly difficult to make portable Python programs.

Zipapp comes close: https://docs.python.org/3/library/zipapp.html

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#364

Post by lacker »

caconym_ wrote: post #227
hardwaregeek wrote: post #149

I gotta say, I feel pretty vindicated after hearing for years how Python’s tooling was just fine and you should just use virtualenv with pip and how JS must be worse, that when Python devs finally get a taste of npm/cargo/bundler in their ecosystem, they freaking love it. Because yes, npm has its issues but lock files and consistent installs are amazing

There is nothing I dread more within the general context of software development, broadly , than trying to run other people's Python projects. Nothing. It's shocking that it has been so bad for so long.

The only thing I dreaded more was trying to run other people's C++ projects.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#365

Post by tecoholic »

mk89 wrote: post #239
hardwaregeek wrote: post #149

I gotta say, I feel pretty vindicated after hearing for years how Python’s tooling was just fine and you should just use virtualenv with pip and how JS must be worse, that when Python devs finally get a taste of npm/cargo/bundler in their ecosystem, they freaking love it. Because yes, npm has its issues but lock files and consistent installs are amazing

I have used pip freeze > requirements.txt pip install -r requirements.txt Way before "official" lockfile existed. Your requirements.txt becomes a lockfile, as long as you accept to not use ranges. Having this in a single tool etc why not, but I don't understand this hype, when it was basically already there.

I am on the same boat. I like uv for its speed and other niceties it brings and being a single tool to manage different things. But lockfile is not that big a deal. I never got Poetry as well. Tried it in a project once and the lockfile was a pain with the merges. I didn’t spend much time, so maybe I didn’t understand the tool and workflow or whatever, but pip and pip-tools were just fine working with requirements.txt.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#366

Post by digisign »

ghusto wrote: post #354
mk89 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have used pip freeze > requirements.txt pip install -r requirements.txt Way before "official" lockfile existed. Your requirements.txt becomes a lockfile, as long as you accept to not use ranges. Having this in a single tool etc why not, but I don't understand this hype, when it was basically already there.

I've never even understood the virtual env dogma. I can see how version conflicts _could_ happen, but they never have. Admittedly, I'm surprised I never have issues installing globally, especially since others keep telling me what a terrible idea it is and how they had nightmare-scenario-X happen to them.

I only ever had it a problem with large, poorly maintained projects from work. You know the kind that have two web frameworks required in the same project, and two orms, etc. ;-) That one I definitely put into a venv. But my stuff, no.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#367

Post by Spivak »

hardwaregeek wrote: post #149

I gotta say, I feel pretty vindicated after hearing for years how Python’s tooling was just fine and you should just use virtualenv with pip and how JS must be worse, that when Python devs finally get a taste of npm/cargo/bundler in their ecosystem, they freaking love it. Because yes, npm has its issues but lock files and consistent installs are amazing

But you are just using virtualenv with pip. It doesn't change any of the moving pieces except that uv is virtualenv aware and will set up / use them transparently.

You've been able to have the exact same setup forever with pyenv and pyenv-virtualenv except with these nothing ever has to be prefixed. Look, uv is amazing and I would recommend it over everything else but Python devs have had this flow forever.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#368

Post by dragonwriter »

ghusto wrote: post #359
tomaskafka wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many times I have come onto a library or tool that would fix my problem, and then realized “oh crap, it’s in Python, I don’t want to spend few hours building a brittle environment for it only for that env to break next time I need to use it” - and went to look for a worse solution in better language.

I really don't get this. I can count on no hands the number of times I've had problems simply going "pip install cool-thing-i-found". Sure, this is just my experience, but I use Python a lot and use a lot of tools written in Python.

Recently (like for several years), with most packages providing wheels for most platforms, it tends to be less of a problem of things actually working, except for dependencies where the platform specifiers used by Python are insufficient to select the right build of the dependency, like PyTorch.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#369

Post by jvanderbot »

dekhn wrote: post #331
jvanderbot wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obligatory: Not only rust would be faster than python, but Rust definitely makes it easy with Cargo. Go, C, C++ should all exhibit the performance you are seeing in uv, if it had been written in one of those languages. The curmudgeon in me feels the need to point out that fast, lightweight software has always been possible, it's just becoming easier now with package managers.

I've programmed all those languages before (learned C in '87, C++ in 93, Go in 2015 or so) and to be honest, while I still love C, I absolutely hate what C++ has become, Go never appealed to me (they really ignored numeric work for a long time). Rust feels like somebody wanted to make a better C with more standard libraries, without going the crazy path C++ took.

That is exactly how I feel about it. I've always loved C for it's simplicity and Rust felt like an accidental love letter.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#370

Post by taeric »

collinmanderson wrote: post #237
taeric wrote: post #145

I still feel bitten by diving into poetry when starting some projects. Has the ecosystem fully moved on to uv, now? Do they have good influence on what python's main ecosystem is moving to?

> Has the ecosystem fully moved on to uv, now? It's moving pretty quick. > Do they have good influence on what python's main ecosystem is moving to? Yes, they're an early adaptor/implementer of the recent pyproject.toml standards.

As someone that is fine on poetry for a few things, is there a good pitch deck on why I should change over?
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