361–370 of 571 posts
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This is referred to as "Minimum Energy Efficiency Standards (MEES)" and seems to have been pioneered in the UK and adopted by Netherlands and France and then the EU generally.
IME the people estimating energy efficiency in the UK do not recognise heat pumps and often misclassify them as less efficient systems.
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I'm jealous of your financial learnings. However, your model is not accurate as it doesn't factor in the 4 degree improvement in comfort and indoor pollution from propane furnaces: Propane furnaces can cause indoor pollution through the release of pollutants like carbon monoxide (CO), nitrogen dioxide (\(NO_{2}\)), and benzene, which are byproducts of combustion. It also doesn't include the negative externalities bec…
Indoor propane furnaces exhaust outdoors in most cases. Space heaters that exhaust indoors are rare - more used for garrage heat than house. If you use them of course actount for it, but most are not.
Maybe I have scar tissue from COVID prices but $20k to install a ductless heat pump vs. a $200 to throw a window A/C in or $700 for a portable heat pump. While I get that these heat pumps are better for the environment and much more efficient it's a last mile issue. The installers charge an arm and a leg and I'm not hurting enough to self install. I'm hoping the window heat pumps that just run off mains will be avail…
The materials they install are small copper pipes and insulation and a 16A capable electric cable and some plastic. Maybe $100-200. I feel like you guys are getting screwed.
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What’s the COP at -15F? It’s probably close to 1, which means you’re paying for resistive heat which happens to be the most expensive possible way to heat something up.
Yeah most places aren't consistently -15F, not going to be a dealbreaker for a week. If you live in Minnesota stick with gas, we'll be ok. The majority of the population will never hit -15F.
For the west coast or areas south of 40 degrees north and east of the Rockies in the US and most of Canada where people actually live (southern Ontario is warm to due Lake Ontario), heat pumps are probably more efficient and cheaper overall.
Minnesota is definitely an outlier with regards to heat pump vs natural gas heating.
Institutional type buildings in Minnesota are switching over to condensing boilers, which are amazingly efficient, well over 90% of the heat is used, and they’re a fraction of the size of the old tube style iron boilers. I’m personally involved in multiple commercial boiler replacements a year.
I am seeing more geothermal installations in MN as well, that works better than air source heat pumps in Minnesota due to the source/sink being a stable 50F instead of having a 80-90F delta like an air source heat pump when it’s -20F outside
One more thing, both Minneapolis and St Paul have district heating and cooling systems in their downtown areas. The University of Minnesota also operates district chilled water and hot water plants in both their Mpls and St Paul campuses.
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This. I had 12 contractors come out for an estimate. I insisted to each that I would only consider estimates accompanied by a Manual J (aka show your work). I got 4 estimates with a manual J, and one of them the vendor said ‘despite that the math says you need a 4 ton outdoor unit, I’m giving you two,’ and refused to budge on that. I went with a vendor who did the math and sized accordingly and my system works great…
If we’re trying to bring down cost the this is the issue with so many contractors coming out. The cost of sales is about 10-15% of the installation in the US. So thats $2-3k in California per heat pump Try to get an install for $600 like in Japan when you have to pay $2k to find the customer. Let’s have a lower cost sales process. Review 12 companies online, pick top 3, ask them to come out.
I got a variety of explanations for why they weren’t going to do it, most of them along the lines of ‘I’ve been doing this forever - I know what I’m doing,’ but a few disappointingly ‘I don’t know what a manual J is.’ Again, this was AFTER my telling them over the phone that I wouldn’t consider a quote that wasn’t based on the calcs.
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I was shocked when I saw the price of heat pump installation in the US, even with an existing ducted system. There’s no reason a reversible heat pump system should be significantly more expensive than a cooling only one.
It’s bonkers. I bought a pre-charged ductless mini split to DIY. Took my dad and I about four hours to do the install. So call it 8 hours of semi-skilled labor. The unit was $1350, I added a line set cover, pad and feet for another $200, and needed about $200 in electrical equipment - it was a long wire run and code requires installing a disconnect box. The only special tool was a hole saw bit for running the coolant…
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Please avoid unwarranted "whataboutism."
This is not whataboutism though. It's comparing two alternatives on a relevant aspect.
Can you please share your definition of "whataboutism?" And explain how bringing up a single alternative (plus flaw) is addressing the critique and NOT changing the subject?
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> most homeowners in california actually see operating cost parity or a slight decrease, even with super expensive electricity But you’re missing my first point though, installing a heat pump system comes with a price tag of tens of thousands of dollars. I’m not doing that if my operating cost is at parity or a slight decrease. It’s the same reason people are no longer incentivized to install solar. And to add to tha…
> installing a heat pump system comes with a price tag of tens of thousands of dollars. Mine cost US$250 for the machine, refrigerant included, and another US$80 for the installation. We've had to have it fixed twice due to factory defects. Its heat output is 3400W, nominally consuming 941 watts of electrical power. It's not a great machine, but you're smoking crack.
I don't know why it's so expensive here. It shouldn't be, it makes no sense. But it is.
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I agree it's important to watch for these things. For externalities or immediate health benefits, heatpumps are pretty defensible. However, solar isn't a saint. Rare earth/mineral mining is hazardous plus only a fraction of solar panels are getting recycled properly. > this is doable in harsh Canadian winters with negligible solar and it breaks even It's doable alright. OP got subsidies (See comment re: risk free loa…
I hope we can agree that fossil fuel consumption is something to be avoided. Subsidies are an effective means of incentivizing people to avoid fossil fuels. If you believe the externalities of solar are a problem, what do you propose to do instead? Should we subsidize some other alternative? Redirect resources from oil to nuclear? Other?
You're making different/absolutist arguments. Even the most ardent electrification proponents agree that you can't replace downstream chemicals/materials.
As for subsidies, you're thinking too narrow if you feel it necessary to only spend limited government budget on energy to improve lives.
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A 1500W electric water heater would be painful to use in a home. A typical 30-60 gallon EWH is 6kW. And for the record, every single natural gas water heater is connected to 120V power for the ignition circuit.
Keep in mind that there's going to be a CoP associated with a heat-pump water heater. Depending on (a bunch of factors) that 1500W HPWH could approach the performance of a 6kW standard EWH.
Heat pumps have no problem operating at a COP of 3-4, so the 120V 12A (1440kW) HPWH would be equivalent to a 240V 25A EWH (6kW)