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Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

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Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#361

Post by hannofcart »

ipaddr wrote: post #224
joelwilliamson wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He’d be dead either way, the question is if having those three years were a net improvement to his life

3 years living vs dying is a 3 year net improvement on life. Such silly statement. By your logic we should kill everyone at their peak.

On the contrary, I urge you to consider whether it is your statement that is overly dismissive. Is there perhaps some existing conditioning, maybe in the form of religious upbringing that is driving your reaction to this? Many of us in fact find OP's a very thoughtful comment than a "silly statement".

> By your logic we should kill everyone at their peak.

No, they suggested that the old and ailing whose quality of life has deteriorated to the point where there is no hope or no more joy in living, ought to be given the choice.

Let me end by quoting my favourite lines from the HN guidelines:

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#362

Post by imtringued »

lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

So you're telling me Alzheimers is a death sentence? Also, what is the minimum nuisance that should lead to someone's death? Because that is the problem with the euthanasia obsession.

At some point everything indirectly leads to euthanasia and society is not built for that at all. Everything you do might or might not lead to someone's euthanasia, which means you are liable for their death.

Let's say we can predict school shooters before they shoot and give them an euthanasia to save lives. If bullying or encouragement causes someone to start shooting up a school, then the latent shooter will die before they do their shooting, but it also means that the instigator is a murderer themselves, because in the absence of instigation, no crime would be committed and no euthanasia would be necessary.

Since it is probably not possible to assign liability of a euthanasia to a single individual, because multiple people contributed to the outcome, the liability will be shared. Ten people being involved means each has committed 10% of a murder, meaning that they should receive 10% of a life sentence. Are you ready to serve a cumulative year in prison spread throughout your life to account for indirectly causing euthanasia?

Note that this problem isn't necessarily unique to euthanasia. The problem applies to any cure all solution. (Think of series like "Common Side Effects")

If you punch someone's face in, but cure it with a blue mushroom, was it really a crime, since their face is intact? And yet, more punching happens as a result of the existence of the panacea, which is why there needs to be a punishment for making someone dependent on the panacea.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#363

Post by anilgulecha »

mosura wrote: post #45
anilgulecha wrote: post #20

I'm part of the Jain community in Bangalore, and the version of this in society exists, called Sallekhna [1], a tradition that's developed over millennia, and this is venerated and celebrated. The philosophical underpinning is giving up of materialness. The practicality of the 5 instances that I witnessed over the past year - typical terminal individuals choose this. They pass away surrounded by loved ones (they typi…

How long does this actually take?

The earliest was under a day. The latest was about 2 weeks. I've heard of about 45 days one as well.. but thats unusual.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#364

Post by anilgulecha »

hackernewds wrote: post #279
NaomiLehman wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you I just learned about it. Seems compatible with atheism.

It absolutely does not. Jainism is even stricter than Hinduism, to be co-opted with a faithless belief system

It's atheistic in that it's godless (more focused on saints). In its orthodoxy it requires a lot from any practitioner, towards its philosophy.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#365

Post by fatata123 »

AQuantized wrote: post #92
lordnacho wrote: post #3

I had an old teacher who died almost a year ago. Great guy, very sociable, knew everyone in the little town he lived in. Kept in touch with a lot of students. Good neighbour, friendly guy who'd talk to everyone. He got Alzheimers. He started forgetting stuff, and it frustrated him. He got caught driving dangerously, and cursed the doctor who took away his license. He argued with me about the state of some chicken he…

> You really don't want to end up with dementia and related illnesses, it totally sours everyone's view of you. This seems like such an absurd conclusion to this, as though the opinions of other people of you are what matter when you functionally lose your personhood and then die. Maybe a better focus would be that there often isn't a good way for a community to manage a person who suddenly becomes irrational because…

[dead]

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#367

Post by Davidzheng »

voakbasda wrote: post #342
beedeebeedee wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and that is one of the reasons our culture has made practices like these taboo- it can give the veneer of respectability to despicable acts

And why there should be more nuance to the issue: legalizing suicide is not the same as legalizing assisted suicide. I want to be free to die on my own terms. Conversely, I do not want the healthcare system to be allowed to even suggest it.

suicide already is legal -> if you succeed there's no one to prosecute so the question is just absurd. One can only discuss legality of attempted suicide.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#368

Post by hkpack »

tirant wrote: post #227
lo_zamoyski wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absurd because it places subjective opinions over objective goods. This is the vice of “human respect”. Human beings do not have a final say about others. They can opine, but opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. Sure, it is nice to be remembered well, if you deserve it, but I do not live for the opinions of others. This is slave mentality and pathetic. I care about being good, and if I am hated for th…

The definition of good is probably the closest to doing the opposite of inflicting pain on others. There’s very little chance that you will be hated by being good. So definitely behaving or being good is not so different than behaving in a way that other people don’t hate you.

Or sometimes people love you for inflicting pain on others. Look at current political figures beloved by their cult.

Or there are others trying to do good things and being hated for taking a courage to challenge things.

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#369

Post by jrs235 »

lukas099 wrote: post #128
kranke155 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating that you think someone with dementia would be suffering more from hunger then from their condition sapping away at them.

If I was starving to death, the acute sensation of hunger would override everything else in my mind.

But seriously, how do you know that?

Re: Daniel Kahneman opted for assisted suicide in Switzerland

#370

Post by guerrilla »

xtracto wrote: post #109
SeanAnderson wrote: post #5

Daniel wrote one of my favorite books, Thinking: Fast and Slow ( https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp... ). If you haven't read it, and you're into economics, behavioral psychology, and thinking about thinking then I'd highly recommend it. The first half of the book is especially compelling. You will be missed! Sad to hear he passed, but glad he was able to go out on his own terms.

I had read so many raves about that book, and heard the author got a Nobel prize for his ideas, so I started reading it. I just could not digest it. I understood the words but I couldn't make whatever message he was trying to convey... it felt too "dense" for me. Maybe im just stupid, but I could not get past I think the first two chapters.

That's weird. I had the opposite reaction. The ideas were so obvious to me that I couldn't understand what all the hype was about.
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