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German government comes out against Chat Control

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Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#361

Netzpolitik.org says it's not decided yet: https://netzpolitik.org/2025/eu-ueberwachungsplaene-unionsfr... Jens Spahn, the speaker in the video OP shared, is not a member of the government but a leading member of the parliament and of one of the ruling parties. A tiny but important difference.

> but a leading member of the parliament I think ‘a leading member’ is underselling it a little. He is the “Fraktionsvorsitzender”, which is comparable to the majority leader in the US Senate.

> which is comparable to the majority leader in the US Senate.

Not really. First of all, Jens Spahn doesn't lead a majority, he merely leads his party's parliamentary group, which has 208 of 630 seats. Second, he has already proven this year that he doesn't have the members of his own parliamentary group under control, so his stance on a matter should not be taken for more than it is.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I have over 50% of my income taken from me into a collapsing welfare state/pension system That's incredibly high - where do you live if you don't mind saying?

Anywhere in Germany? Our pre-tax income is pre-pre-taxed. Before your employer pays out your wage, they are taxed for it as well.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong - but according to this random website I found in 5 seconds of googling:

https://www.expat.hsbc.com/expat-explorer/expat-guides/germa...

The highest band of income tax in Germany is 45% and obviously that's only on any amount over the threshold - so even if you make that much money your effective tax rate will be closer to 30% than 50%.

So unless I'm missing something - I don't see how Germans could be paying 50% tax on their earnings?

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#363
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's incorrect on every level. The greens are not filled with communists. They would feel very unwelcome there, given the capitalist move the party did in the 90s. Die Linke is also not a communist party. It supports capitalism, but targets a social capitalism, like the CDU did in the 50s and the SPD did until the 80s. There are communist parties in Germany, like the MLPD, but they do not get many votes. Background…

> Die Linke is also not a communist party. It supports capitalism, but targets a social capitalism, like the CDU did in the 50s and the SPD did until the 80s. This is untrue and you will only have to go so far to read their party program to find out it isn't.

Be our guest and enlighten us with citations!

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and North Korea is "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". Names don't reflect reality. > It's a regulated market economic model So is the USA.

> Yes and North Korea is "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". Names don't reflect reality. Our model came first, then came the name. I explained it's origins thoroughly, it is rooted in economic theory and it is what is really happening in Germany. It's codified in Articles 20 and 14 of our constitution. Social welfare is among the best in the world and covers a lot , but taxes are high. This would never happen i…

What percentage of German companies are owned and managed by its workers? What percentage are owned by capitalists, generating private profits?

Are those numbers indicative of socialism or capitalism?

> I recommend you read up on it a bit before making snarky comments on the internet.

It's not a snarky comment. Regulation and welfare are requirements even in a capitalist economy, otherwise you have people dying on the streets en masse and companies dumping toxic waste next to the fields where you grow food. You're essentially arguing that real capitalism hasn't been attempted yet - that more "freedom" (from regulation), more inequality will somehow fix things.

The US has more "freedom" in this sense than Germany - is the average person doing better over there? I don't think so, I certainly don't know any "average worker" currently living anywhere in the EU who would want to swap places.

Germany is a capitalist country with strong social welfare. If you think social welfare is a problem, feel free to argue that, but one thing that's not up for serious discussion is its economic model.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the defined economic model in Germany is called "Social market economy", not capitalism. It is one of the systems furthest removed from capitalism that is not yet Socialism (or similar systems). It's a regulated market economic model and it is designed to sit exactly in the middle between laissez faire capitalism and socialism. You can read this up if you like.

Sorry, but lol. Germany even makes you pay to be able to piss in a toilet. Even public libraries aren't free! And let's not mention the health care system, which literally has two tiers, one for the poor and one for the rich, with of course the poor-tier being barely functional, and still expensive as fuck. "Social market economy" my ass. Germany is a country led by incompetent extremely paternalistic leaders, the ma…

> Even public libraries aren't free!

Because they aren't public. They are provided by a company.

> And let's not mention the health care system, which literally has two tiers, one for the poor and one for the rich, with of course the poor-tier being barely functional, and still expensive as fuck

This is because of inefficiency, an aging demographic and regulation, not because of capitalism. The "system for the rich" was worse back in the day, and only became "better" for doctors because they adjusted their rates for covered services. In fact, because the "poor tier" insurance companies have not adjusted their rates according to inflation for a long time [1], services are of course getting worse. The average dentist earns 50% of what he earned 1970 adjusted for inflation. [2] This is called the "Punktwert", it hasn't changed since 1980 ([3]) and it is the single most important factor why services are getting worse and worse. No one is getting rich off of GKV members. Not doctors, and certainly not insurance companies.

> "Social market economy" my ass.

Sorry, no. This is the direct outcome of a social market economy, when the economic motor isn't doing so good, you still have to pay for permanent social gifts that were given to the largest voting class (old people). The government mandated insurance companies are close to being bankrupt because of this exact policy. In fact, they would already be bankrupt if we didn't have a social market economy [4], which pays billions of tax dollars to prop them up.

> The only people getting any kind of social benefits are the retired boomers and if you were to do the accounting, even they got massively shafted by the capitalists, because those boomers would be 3x richer if their lifetime savings were properly invested.

Well, boomers, pensioners and those close to retirement make up 60% of the voting base. They got what they voted for, good and bad, a social market economic model that bleeds the workers to pay for pensions. That matches the definition of a large welfare system exactly. They also voted pretty clearly against an investment backed pension scheme and have been voting like this for 4 decades now. As always, economic models have disadvantages, and we are finding out now that models close to socialism stop working when you run out of other people's money.

[1]: https://www.aerzteblatt.de/archiv/amtliche-gebuehrenordnung-...

[2]: https://praxis-analysen.de/das-verfuegbare-zahnarzt-einkomme...

[3]: https://www.aerzteblatt.de/news/mehrere-vertragsarztliche-le...

[4]: https://www.pkv.de/positionen/bundeszuschuss/

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#366
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AfD is classified as extreme-right not only in the eyes of the public, but also by German intelligence. Therefore I'd personally expect them to support potential tools that authoritarian governments would find useful.

It's the classical playbook. Capture the media, declare the opposition illegal, bye bye democracy. The public was sold this Nazi story about the AfD by the established powers to keep them down. Looking at what has been going on it's wild to me to call the AfD authoritarian compared the the Altparteien...

Another TikTok zombie - get out of your emotionally charged environment please.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#367
post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please clarify how people in Germany are unfree and unsecure now. Last time I checked we had free votes and I could say that I hate Merz.

Being free to vote doesn't make you feel free and secure. It's not even safe to attend to a protest to ask for a ceasefire in Gaza. So yeah, you can say "I hate Merz", but don't even try to say "Free Palestine"...

Free Palestine - I already hear them knocking send help

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AfD has f'd up views on many things. I wouldn't even be surprised if they would vote for it, as soon as they are in a position of power. However in its current state, they would hurt themselfs with a chat control law. So yes, your a right. I would also not expect them to vote for it.

[flagged]

However, for the same reason, it's in everybody else's best interest that an organisation that might be taken over by fascists not have access to a panopticon.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#369
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is this actually a concern? AFAICT this isn't happening How do you know it isn't happening if their faces and bodies are always covered? Did you undress all of them to check? > it's just something that could theoretically happen Welcome to the real world where a lot of laws are made to cover things that could happen precisely so that when they DO happen, there's a law ready to enforce. Why? Because if something CAN…

> I'm not. You come to my house, you follow my rules, you come to our country you follow our values, simple I wish it was this simple, so badly, but that strategy has been tried many times before and it always ends in violence. First off, who is "our"? Is it the majority? That leaves every minority group vulnerable. Is it the most powerful (it usually is)? That leave everyone screwed. It all seems great, until you en…

>I wish it was this simple

Why isn't it simple?

>but that strategy has been tried many times before and it always ends in violence

Then don't import people of divergent/adversarial cultures who aren't willing to integrate into your country and are only there to extract the monetary benefits of your society without conforming to the laws, customs, social contracts, cultures and obligations that society requires.

If you only accept people who gladly accept your culture and values, there is no violence. History has proven this yet it seems like uncharted territory to some people. "you mean putting the fox in the hen house ends in violence?!"

>First off, who is "our"? Is it the majority?

It's the amalgamation of culture, history, collection of laws, constitution, 'Volk Geist' and the voice of the democratic majority of the citizens of the country where you choose to emigrate that compose the concept of "our country", which you need to accept when you choose move somewhere, or GTFO. You can't move to a different culture and expect them to accept your alien values that might go against theirs. Their values hold precedence over yours.

> That leaves every minority group vulnerable

No it doesn't, this is just an empty appeal to emotional manipulation.

In most western democracies, minorities and legal immigrants have the same human rights and equal access to healthcare, education, justice system, etc as everyone else so they're not "more vulnerable" just because they can't wear a burka in public. To receive those rights, it requires them to accept and conform to the laws and values of the society they chose to move to, like the law of not wearing burkas for example, or the law to tolerate LGBT people. Not wearing burkas in public is not making the wearer more vulnerable. On the contrary, foreigners wearing burkas in public makes the locals feel uncomfortable and vulnerable in their own country.

>For example, some of the historical opinions of my fairly recent ancestors: All Jewish people should be dead;

You see, since all your arguments are just empty appeals to emotional manipulation or moving the goalposts from laws banning burkas to somehow being similar to genocide of jews, I will stop the conversation here since you're clearly arguing in bad faith. I've already covered all your points with arguments, there's nothing more I can add. If you want to accept them fine, if not, also fine. Good day.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP claimed that people's homes got raided for "daring to insult the ruling class", your source claims that people's homes got raided for posting extremist racist speech online. Unless you believe in some ridiculous conspiracy where ZE JEWS CONTROL ZE BANKS, this has absolutely no relation to your ability to insult the ruling class: Black people and Muslims are not "the ruling class". And if you do believe in such…

Your comment has been debunked countless times. This man's home was not raided for his antisemitism (which is really damn bad!) but for calling a guy an idiot [1]. I suggest you stop spreading lies. [1]: https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/nach-schwachkopf-post-p...

That's a different case though. The Habeck meme thing happened somewhere near Bamberg, the CBS article recounts "state police [...] raided this apartment in northwest Germany".

Look, I'm not saying that the police or the ministry of the interior never abuse their power, far from it. (There was also the Andy Grote case a few years back.) But please remember that the original claim we are discussing, from a few comments up in this chain, was that Germany has neither "Freiheit noch Sicherheit" right now. It's ridiculous rabble-rousing to insinuate that because of these outlier events, while concerning, Germany has neither freedom nor security.

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