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Boeing has started working on a 737 MAX replacement

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Re: Boeing has started working on a 737 MAX replacement

#361

Post by hinkley »

dingaling wrote: post #244
masklinn wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They gave the wing design away to Mitsubishi for fucks sake. You never do that. They were neck deep in the McDonnell Douglas metastasis at the time The 787 was a straight up MDD pants-on-head plan (pushed by Stonecipher and McDonnel themselves), the entire point was to shift the costs of design and development to suppliers, with the idea that they'd fund the aircraft you could sell.

Nothing really exceptional about that, risk-sharing projects were common in aerospace in the 80s onwards. 21% of the 777 ( yes the beloved Triple Seven ) was farmed out to a Japanese consortium which took risk for the design and production of the fuselage.

But never the wings. That was always Boeing’s. Until MD fucked everything.

Re: Boeing has started working on a 737 MAX replacement

#362

Post by reeredfdfdf »

WalterBright wrote: post #328
bluGill wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True but small planes are profitable too even for long flights. They have to compete against the more profitable large ones but they do that by emptying the large ones. I want to get to a destination and if a small plane isn't much more money it is cheaper to not transfer at a hub and pay for the 2nd plane to where I want to be. More smaller planes can also fit my schedule which can save money. there is a reason nobo…

> there is a reason nobody flies the 747 anymore The reason is the aerodynamics of it are 60 years old making it no longer competitive with modern aerodynamics. Compare your car with a 1965 Chevy Impala, for example.

Mostly it's about engine tech. A 777/787 or whatever can fit almost as many passengers as a 747, but has only two engines, burning less fuel and requiring less maintenance.

Back when 747 was designed engine tech wasn't there yet to build really big two engine airplanes. There was also the issue of ETOPS limits. The regulations on how far away from nearest airport you can fly with two-engine aircraft were stricter than today, so for many routes flying over oceans you needed more than two engines.

Re: Boeing has started working on a 737 MAX replacement

#363

Post by speerer »

parineum wrote: post #350
rendaw wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GP's use is listed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule... under "Proving the validity of a rule of thumb"

It's listed there as a way that people use it and then calls that usage objectionable and a misunderstanding. I don't dispute that people use it that way but it's objectively a misuse. The phrase's misuse implies that evidence against a statement supports the statement. > In many uses of the phrase, however, the existence of an exception is taken to more definitively 'prove' a rule to which the exception does not fit…

> The phrase's misuse implies that evidence against a statement supports the statement.

The original meaning of 'prove' was more like 'test'. The original sense was therefore opposite to this.

Re: Boeing has started working on a 737 MAX replacement

#364

Post by wongarsu »

ipython wrote: post #307
nothercastle wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of manufacturing processes are easier without an atmosphere. Also low gravity makes it easy to launch completed product out to space for future space missions

Which manufacturing processes are easier w/o an atmosphere? We've placed objects in planetary orbits for 75 years now. If there was an obvious economic benefit to a manufacturing process outside of 1G, then we'd have had a business actively exploiting that opportunity for profit.

ZBLAN, a high quality optic fibre, can be made in space with fewer defects. A process that is in the process of being exploited.

Though the rather limited space on the ISS and its imminent decommissioning complicate that a bit. I think the current plan is to launch satellites for commercial production

Re: Boeing has started working on a 737 MAX replacement

#365

Post by Ekaros »

ghaff wrote: post #299
PaulHoule wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be better to say that they form a system which is economically optimized as a whole. It is genius, for instance, that frequent fliers get upgrades from coach to first class when they're available because it means if a first class flier changes their plans or wants to fly on short notice an economy flier just says in coach and won't feel mad about it -- the first class seats are 100% occupied in terms of prov…

Yes, I was imprecise in what I wrote. There's a lot of cross-subsidization in various forms going on that makes all-business class at business-class prices tough for airlines even on routes like NYC to London--which have existed but not sure they do at the moment.

I heard only place where business + premium economy works is ultra long routes. Where people are willing to pay the premium of single leg over multi leg. So it seems people might be willing to pay for time, but not for comfort.

Re: Boeing has started working on a 737 MAX replacement

#366

Post by exidy »

grepfru_it wrote: post #261
sitharus wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He initially turned down the job because he felt that a lawyer wasn't the right person to run an engineering company, and from reports of people who worked with him he knew his knowledge limits and listened to the engineers. He took serious risks with the 707 and 747 projects because he trusted the people who understood the technology. MBAs and final-gasp lawyers concentrate on making the reported number go up in the…

Fun fact the 707 had the first implementation of “MCAS” because the plane had a tendency to pitch up in a certain flaps configuration. They added a stick nudger which applied light pressure in said config. Not a stick pusher, as it did not alert the pilots, it simply applied an extra input independent of the pilots. However this was made aware to all pilots of the plane and likely contributed to its certification. Al…

I think there might be some confusion here. The vertical stabiliser (not the tail) was extended by 40 inches [0] to combat concerns about poor yaw control.

Although the Wikipedia article cites the UK ARB as the influence, it was also in response to the 1959 crash [1] of a 707 being used for training, in which Dutch roll was induced and later became so violent it ripped 3 engines off the wings.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_707#707-420

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959_Washington_Boeing_707_cra...

Re: Boeing has started working on a 737 MAX replacement

#367

Post by lisper »

tw04 wrote: post #333
lisper wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with large organizations where once their markets mature, everybody who can build a product end-to-end leaves or gets forced out, leaving only people with highly specialized maintenance skillsets It's not just building a product end-to-end. Tim Cook is a supply-chain guy. He knows how to build a product. What he doesn't know how is how to design a new one. This is the reason that all of the "new" stuff that has com…

I dunno, Johnny Ive had the MacBook on a trajectory to disaster trying to make it thinner for the sake of being thin. Under Cook’s leadership they actually listened to users and redesigned it to be something people actually wanted. Beyond that, I’m not sure what you think is going to be the visionary product. AR/VR still feels like 3D tv to me - a solution looking for a problem. The best use case I’ve seen was HoloLe…

> AR/VR still feels like 3D tv to me - a solution looking for a problem.

Have you tried the Vision Pro? It was a life-changing experience for me. I actually forgot that I was looking at a screen and thought that I was looking through a transparent visor. It was that good.

If they could get the weight down I'd buy it in a heartbeat. The problem it solves (for me, or at least would solve if it didn't weigh so damned much) is having effectively a giant monitor that I can use on a plane.

Re: Boeing has started working on a 737 MAX replacement

#368

Post by lisper »

djmips wrote: post #326
lisper wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> with large organizations where once their markets mature, everybody who can build a product end-to-end leaves or gets forced out, leaving only people with highly specialized maintenance skillsets It's not just building a product end-to-end. Tim Cook is a supply-chain guy. He knows how to build a product. What he doesn't know how is how to design a new one. This is the reason that all of the "new" stuff that has com…

I feel like moving in the direction of their own silicon and getting M1 out and to massive success was under Tim Cook's watch. You might not consider this 'designing a new product' but I do.

No, that's a fair point. It's not really a product, but given what a huge win it was in terms of power/performance I'd say it qualifies.

Re: Boeing has started working on a 737 MAX replacement

#369

Post by procaryote »

unreal6 wrote: post #70
procaryote wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For software, the easiest way to design for this is to keep systems small enough that fitting it in your head is relatively feasible in a reasonable time for a competent engineer. Connect them with clear APIs that don't have to change all that often, and you can build pretty big things. I imagine this is doable with hardware too

> Connect them with clear APIs that don't have to change all that often, and you can build pretty big things. Emphasis on clear . It's a challenging endeavor to properly draw and enforce these service boundaries.

Definitely! My metric is "how often do I need to change two systems at once".

This is one of the things monorepos help in some ways (by making it easier to change two systems) and break in some ways (as you now get less annoyed by the split between systems being in the wrong place)

Re: Boeing has started working on a 737 MAX replacement

#370

Post by sfn42 »

cgio wrote: post #318
parineum wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what "the exception proves the rule" means. It means, when you see a sign that says an exception, "no parking Wednesdays between 8 and 12", it proves the rule that parking is allowed otherwise.

A phrase does not mean anything by itself. People mean something when they use it. You could argue that expressions carry some meaning, by virtue of shared use. But your definition does not align with the meaning most people make of this specific expression as you can witness above.

People misuse expressions. A common one is the customer is always right. The actual wording is the customer is always right in matters of taste but people cut off the ending which changes it from a sensible and useful proverb to a bunch of nonsense. Of course the customer isn't always right. They're always right in terms of what they want to buy, not in all other terms.

Similarly an exception like a lawyer being a good ceo does not prove a rule like lawyers are bad CEOs. It's nonsense. People who don't understand the proverb took it and misused it and then others took after them and here we are, I've been wondering about that proverb my entire life and I never understood how it makes any sense. Now I finally do, and I'm glad the other commenter clarified it

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