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I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

simonhartcher.com

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Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#361

Post by ManBeardPc »

vander_elst wrote: post #348

Honest question, how is it possible that Macs are so much better in terms of hardware? Context: I use a MacBook at work and a Lenovo with Linux at home and now I might need to change my personal laptop, but I struggle to find (hardware) reasons why not to buy a MacBook, a MacBook Air is actually cheaper than another laptops with similar specs. There's still the ideology of repairability and openness which still plays…

Huge barrier of entry. It requires a lot of integration and investment. Getting another supplier to move usually involves handing over big bills. Even then it is not guaranteed that the change is (fast) enough. I see it all the time, nobody gets their ass up unless it’s on fire. Still some companies will claim „at least it’s warm now“. „This is fine“-meme is real. Resist change at all costs.

I’ve seen companies losing their by far biggest customer because they refuse to hire real engineers instead of juniors to fix their software. The customer tried YEARS of complaining before.

Another customer: different suppliers use different barcode patterns for deliveries, some including nasty stuff like NULL as separators (but only sometimes, can be space, tab, whatever) or non-unique IDs. They rather spent the effort to fix everything else with workarounds than change the contract and demand proper barcodes/delivery data.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#362

Post by typpilol »

izak30 wrote: post #268
franciscop wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had it happened, sure it was with Linux but it was scary taking out a fire brick from my bag and praying it was still working. I had been using Linux for 10+ years until the M1 came out, and for as much as I love Linux unfortunately I haven't looked back, the hardware is just that good. When it's time to replace my M1 air, if the laptop is still working (I tend to replace when they break), I'll try to install As…

My M1 is suffering from a bug where there is runaway SSD writes and I have to restart it every few days. I've learned so many coping techniques. I'd never call this the best hardware I've ever owned, that was a 2011 MBA.

That's normally a sign of a dying ssd controller more than anything

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#363

Post by yehat »

didacusc wrote: post #22
cardanome wrote: post #8

As a Linux user I feel you. The Mac Desktop is vastly inferior to the Linux world (for power users) but the hardware is so, so good. For me it is about having a completely silent setup. It is so, so hard to go back to noisy fans. I really hope Asahi Linux keep going so I can have the best of both worlds.

Saying that the macOS desktop is vastly inferior to Linux desktops is absolutely nuts. I've tried to get my relatives on Linux desktops so many times, just for it to go completely wrong a couple of weeks after and having to reinstall Windows. It's just not made for average (or below-average) users, so I don't see how it can be VASTLY inferior to something as easy and polished as macOS.

People's habits have nothing to do with "superior" or "inferior" qualities of a certain OS. No matter how good or bad, the habits have a strong resistance force against any change. That's not necessarily bad, but let's not make it part of judging OSes qualities.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#364

Post by kelvie »

maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

https://lore.kernel.org/linux-pm/20231114022503.6310-1-kelvi...

I authored a patch (I still use it to this day, and I think others do too) that allows this, and sent it to the LKML as an RFC, and was rejected, for some background.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#365

Post by darkamaul »

I recently made the move from a Framework to a M4. And god that’s so convenient to simply be able to close or open the lid to instantly use the laptop.

On the Framework, I had to get it plugged before I could turn it on, due to a problem with the RTC battery [0]. There is actually a known defect here but they provide a free replacement _and_ a guide to help you perform the swap [1].

[0] https://community.frame.work/t/viability-of-an-ml-1220-recha...

[1] https://knowledgebase.frame.work/fr/how-do-i-replace-the-rtc...

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#366

Post by Throwaway123129 »

maverwa wrote: post #17

The complaint about power usage in suspend is especially sad because it’s pretty much a common problem for Linux on laptops. Not sure if that’s what applies here, but the numbers about match what I see with my Framework. Basically: if you want to use secure boot you usually also want kernel lockdown mode, and you cannot hibernate a lockdowned kernel. At least not without out-of-tree patches. IMHO that’s a giant issue…

This is not a Linux issue (Though the hibernate issues are!). It's a PC issue. Microsoft went on a crusade making hardware vendors implement S0 next to S3 but most hardware vendors now _only_ implement S0. So that the laptop can keep phoning home and download updates etc whilst closed. Which means it's impossible to turn off the CPU during suspend. it's always on.

PC as a laptop platform is a complete joke.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#367

Post by nicce »

alansammarone wrote: post #282
isametry wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say "Apple's dominance", are you referring to a potential dominance? Because in terms of actual dominance, Apple is far from that in laptops. Lenovo, HP and Dell each sell more laptops than Apple, and those three alone make up 60% of the market. https://www.industryresearch.biz/market-reports/mobile-compu...

Completely disproportionate, off the charts dominance (relative to everything else I have tried in (mostly hardware, but also software) quality, attention to detail and UI/UX would be my opinion. Power consumption would be part of that. Granted, I haven't tried most of the newer niche Linux-focused laptops, which I intend to do.

Have to say that UI/UX suffered a lot at least on iOS side with the latest OS releases.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#368

Post by fpoling »

heavyset_go wrote: post #306
ekianjo wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hibernation works fine with this approach. Can you explain why it improves the hibernation behavior? I have seen UKI mentioned before but never heard that it improves hibernation.

It doesn't, it's just another bootstrapping method that happens to work fine with hibernation. UKI allows you to extend your chain of trust from the bootloader to ramdisk, instead of just your bootloader and kernel. From there, you can enable kernel lockdown and checking of module signatures if you want to. I think you can do the same thing without UKI (I forget tbh), but UKI simplifies it with one UEFI executable th…

Does this mean that the hibernated image must be signed each time the laptop hibernates?

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#369

Post by charcircuit »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #343
jjice wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal machine is a Framework 13 AMD (first gen of AMD for them) and my work machine is a MB Pro M4. The Mac Book just keeps battery _forever_ while suspended, where as I've found the Framework (running Ubuntu 24) loses about 1% an hour while suspended. 1% per hour is acceptable for me, but the Mac Book's power to performance ration is just insane. I can't blame Framework, of course. Upstart laptop manufacturer…

I don’t think there’s much framework can do about this. The same happens with Windows on HP and Dell laptops, except windows tends to quickly enter hibernation (if it doesn’t somehow hang and burn up your bag). We used to have better suspend before, when s3 was thing, on both Linux and windows. Maybe not as great as Macs, but way better than the current shitshow. Now I’m not saying pcs are great hardware, but I think…

>I don’t think there’s much framework can do

The MacBook is an existence proof that there is something they can do.

Re: I'm spoiled by Apple Silicon but still love Framework

#370

Post by Tade0 »

someguyiguess wrote: post #289
seabrookmx wrote: post #122

The article is pretty light on details. Whether the Framework is worth it to you really depends on your use case. I never leave a laptop in my bag for three weeks, and if I do I have the foresight to actually shut it down rather than sleep it. So the battery drain while sleeping is less of a problem for me. My Framework 13 has the Ryzen 5 AI 340 Chip, and I get 5-6 hours of work on a charge. The Macbooks definitely b…

5-6 hours? In 2025? That's... really bad. My 5 year old Macbook Pro lowest-spec M1 gets at least 10-12 hours of work on a charge and lasts for weeks in sleep mode.

To me it appears that the screen is a huge power hog - at least in the 16.

My idle power consumption at 0% display brightness is around 7.5W, but I've seen people get to as low as 6.5W. Not great, not terrible. With the display at 50% it jumps to the teens(13-17W).

Meanwhile the display in the MBP peaks at 6.2W:

https://andytran93.com/2021/12/05/power-consumption-implicat...

I guess herein lies their secret sauce - with the rest of the device idling at ~5W total power consumption in this state doesn't go beyond 11W.

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