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Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

middleeasteye.net

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Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#361

Post by _DeadFred_ »

runarberg wrote: post #293
cryptoegorophy wrote: post #279

[flagged]

I don’t believe questions like that are asked in good faith. Maybe you are the exception, but I have seen too many people begin with exactly this question, and then end up justifying the Gaza genocide. In case you are asking in good faith—and following the HN guidelines—I suggest you abandon this question and consider that maybe this is the wrong question to ask given the situation. If that is hard, then I ask you to…

Calling someone directly out/impugning their motives instead of responding is actually a violation of the HN guidelines. You can respond to topics, not posters. You are the one in violation.

This isn't the first time I've seem this 'you aren't in good faith' response on this topic, and is partly why again, HN just isn't a place where a real discussion can be had on this subject.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#362

Post by dang »

SilverElfin wrote: post #241
cramcgrab wrote: post #164

Why is this posted on a tech news site?

I wonder the same. It’s odd to see it still here given the low quality of the discussion. And it is flooded by mischaracterizations, misinformation, and one-sided hyperbolic takes. I wonder what the right space or format is to have debates like this but in an effective way, rather than sides trying to win.

However dismayed you are by the low quality of the discussion, I promise you it bothers us even more. It's awful.

Not only that but whenever a thread like this appears, tomhow and I end up spending all day on it, which is by far the worst part of the job. I don't mean to complain—that would be grotesque, given the suffering that's going on—but rather to say how much easier it would be if HN did not discuss this or similar topics at all.

But I don't think that's an option. It wouldn't be consistent with the values or the mandate of this site as I understand them, and it's our duty to try to be as true to those as we can. I want to be able to look back and say we did our best at that, even though the outcomes are this bad. I tried to explain this in a recent thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44403787, though I don't know how successfully.

The upshot is that there's no good option and no way out. Maybe experiencing that is the best we can do to honor what's happening. It feels congruent with the situation being discussed, albeit in the trivial form that everything on an internet forum takes.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#363

Post by caycep »

sfink wrote: post #190
jcranmer wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's definitely a generational gap going in the US. Support for Israel is not popular among the younger generation in the US, and there's a good deal of voters in their 20s and 30s for whom support for Israel a red line in candidates. But older generations tend to be staunchly in favor of Israel, and too much of the gerontocratic political class thinks that pro-Israel uber alles is the key to winning votes. It is…

I wouldn't label this as "support for Israel"/"against Israel". One can support Israel without supporting Israel's current approach. Many within Israel are not happy with Netanyahu's methods, and presumably they are not against Israel. I understand that that's the current shorthand, but it seems inaccurate and unnecessarily polarizing to me.

This is what puzzles me - ppl keep railing about being pro or anti Israel and it's overly simplistic and also not really accurately describing things. It's more pro/anti Likud or Kahanists, or really at heart a right vs left wing divide. There's still plenty of Labor or more progressive elements of the Israeli public who are against what Netanyahu and his political allies are doing.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#364

Post by throwaway3060 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #328
flyinglizard wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That gap between support of Israel across age groups existed historically AFAIK, although the margins were narrower. More worrying for Israel is that it's becoming a partisan issue. That goes to both ends - previously unthinkable, unwavering support under Republicans but a very short leash under the Democrats.

> More worrying for Israel is that it's becoming a partisan issue. A highly salient political issue becoming partisan is a good thing in a representative democracy, as that is the only thing that makes it possible for the public to influence it by general election votes.

In FPTP, this often ends up backfiring. A politicized issue quickly becomes a polarized issue - the other side takes the opposite view, and both sides then race to the extremes. Compromise becomes less and less possible, because then each side sees it as a defeat. Nothing ends up done.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#365

Post by MangoToupe »

toast0 wrote: post #191
MangoToupe wrote: post #80

I'm afraid the latest spate of "recognizing the state of Palestine" is not, in fact, a sign of coming relief for the people there, but rather a spigot to relieve domestic pressure to engage in substantive actions (sanctions, pressuring the US and other suppliers of arms to engage in sanctions, let alone sending peacekeepers or no-fly zones). Regardless of how much you're personally invested in the topic, this should…

> I'm afraid the latest spate of "recognizing the state of Palestine" is not, in fact, a sign of coming relief for the people there, but rather a spigot to relieve domestic pressure to engage in substantive actions (sanctions, pressuring the US and other suppliers of arms to engage in sanctions, let alone sending peacekeepers or no-fly zones). I don't think recognition as a State would really change anything. If at l…

There's not really much of a state to recognize in the first place, is there? Maybe this would have made a big difference 30 years ago, but now?

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#366

Post by fahhem »

xyzelement wrote: post #327

[flagged]

You can be kept on the brink of starvation just like you can keep a cup hanging over the edge of a table. It's a manufactured famine, therefore it can be created with precision. Unlike the potato famine in Ireland, it's controlled and they literally count calories going in (before cutting it to 0).

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#367

Post by latentcall »

kayodelycaon wrote: post #335
xyzelement wrote: post #327

[flagged]

Given all the hatred that is going around, I believe the genocide is real. And if it's not real yet, it will be if someone doesn't put a stop to this. But all the reporting does not add up. Half the pictures Hamas shows of starving children aren't legitimate. They're children with medical conditions, not in Gaza, or from a different conflict. The number of people starving to death each day are in the single or low do…

“Half the pictures Hamas shows of starving children aren't legitimate. They're children with medical conditions, not in Gaza, or from a different conflict.”

This seems like a strong claim. Please back it up.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#368

Post by EchoReflection »

therobots927 wrote: post #60

I for one will be holding my representatives responsible who continue to vote for the US to enable a genocide. The videos coming out of Gaza have turned me and many others into single issue voters.

[flagged]

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#369

Post by protocolture »

deanCommie wrote: post #284
GoatInGrey wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People didn't flip to red so much as blue voters in swing states sitting on their hands and abstaining from voting. Now they're looking down the barrel of authoritarianism and they're still unwilling to vote unless Gaza is a fully solved problem. The cruel irony is that this behavior is worsening the situation in Gaza.

And that was always known to have been a counter-productive protest. There's nothing ironic about this. They were told. They didn't care. It was unambiguously clear that no matter how bad you felt Obama/Biden/Harris were on Israel, Trump was/would be worse. If every single human life is worth saving (and it is), it's indisputable that Trump is worse for Gaza than Harris would have been. It was the ultimate Trolley Pr…

The Dems being willing to lose elections rather than meet voter expectations, says more about them than it does any particular voting or non voting group.

Re: Top UN legal investigators conclude Israel is guilty of genocide in Gaza

#370

Post by thunky »

sfink wrote: post #190
jcranmer wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's definitely a generational gap going in the US. Support for Israel is not popular among the younger generation in the US, and there's a good deal of voters in their 20s and 30s for whom support for Israel a red line in candidates. But older generations tend to be staunchly in favor of Israel, and too much of the gerontocratic political class thinks that pro-Israel uber alles is the key to winning votes. It is…

I wouldn't label this as "support for Israel"/"against Israel". One can support Israel without supporting Israel's current approach. Many within Israel are not happy with Netanyahu's methods, and presumably they are not against Israel. I understand that that's the current shorthand, but it seems inaccurate and unnecessarily polarizing to me.

> One can support Israel without supporting Israel's current approach.

I think you're overthinking this. We're taking about a country committing genocide here. You either support them or you don't.

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