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Corporations are trying to hide job openings from US citizens

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Re: Corporations are trying to hide job openings from US citizens

#361

Post by pandaman »

darth_avocado wrote: post #359
pandaman wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you should’ve applied through EB1 Why? If you know as much as you claim about immigration you should know that any EB1 application will dwarf any EB2 application in amount of work and documentation needed. Also, having rare skillset is not enough to get EB1, as you also might know. You need to meet a set of requirements, none of if which has anything to do with rarity of the skillset.

My comment was in response to your claim that EB system was created for people with rare skills, which it clearly isn’t. You were in a job that only 1000 people were able to do, you being one of them. And yet you suggested that EB1 would more laborious and not fit for you. > You may be eligible for an employment-based, first-preference visa if you are an alien of extraordinary ability, are an outstanding professor or…

As I said, EB-1 does not require rare skills. PERM based EB-2 and 3, though, require that there are no US workers with such skills available so it's highly correlated with skill's rarity. So why and where would I say that the entire EB system is created for people with rare skills?

>> You may be eligible for an employment-based, first-preference visa if you are an alien of extraordinary ability, are an outstanding professor or researcher, or are a certain multinational executive or manager.

Yep, and I am none of this.

>Yet you went for EB2, which is designed for a different set of immigrants where the proof of exceptional ability is a lot more lax

Yep, because EB2 does not require any exceptional ability, just the lack of a US worker available, willing, and able to do the job and a master's degree.

Re: Corporations are trying to hide job openings from US citizens

#362

Post by fakedang »

scheme271 wrote: post #332
fakedang wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top 1% of artists have the O1 route, not the H1B route. Tying H1B to salary is imo a reasonable solution for most companies. Thing is, in that case, most companies would simply resort to bringing in more L1 employees.

L1 employees require that the company employ the person for a year at an international branch so this is only available to multi-national companies.

Yes, and the usual suspects already abuse it to move jobs abroad. If you had observed, it's often multinationals, usually Indian consultancies or companies with Indian Capability Centers, which abuse the H1B. They'll just be forced to switch to the L1.

The key difference here is that the L1 is a non-immigrant visa with a period of 7 years. The H1B isn't.

Re: Corporations are trying to hide job openings from US citizens

#363

Post by lovich »

pandaman wrote: post #350
lovich wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is off the cuff game theory, so please feel encouraged to poke holes in it. Would my point B not limit that fraudulent behavior as now the brought in migrant would be free to compete for a better position with higher pay and/or better benefits to the detriment of the company that paid an entry fee? I would also expect this to result in massively less immigration for the same reasons companies are loathe to train…

>Would my point B not limit that fraudulent behavior as now the brought in migrant would be free to compete for a better position with higher pay and/or better benefits to the detriment of the company that paid an entry fee? I don't see how. As I understood, you mean that you want H-1Bs to be able to change jobs, not to hang in the country unemployed? It is already so. Of course, H-1Bs are not the only way foreign la…

> As I understood, you mean that you want H-1Bs to be able to change jobs, not to hang in the country unemployed?

No explicitly not that. I want whoever sponsors and h1b or the equivalent in my fantasy world here to pay for the cost to society up front and then for that h1b person to have the same freedom as a citizen.

My thinking behind that is that if a company is saying we can not find a single citizen who can fill this role so we need to import one, then this makes it real. If that argument is true then I want said immigrant to be in the workforce with the same rules that I have, instead of being a second class citizen which makes them more attractive to companies because they are cheaper/more controlled

I believe that allowing for the corporation hiring said h1b to have any say, direct or indirectly, in said h1bs ability to remain in the market will necessarily make them an employee that US companies prioritize.

The only way to stop that, from my current understanding, is to make it so that corporations have to pay the cost to add a person to society, but have no say in the decision making process after.

Upon review of my post and thinking through why I feel that way, I realized I just want the same deal applied to corporations for bringing in new entrants to society as is applied to people marrying foreigners.

I married someone outside the country and as part of their green card application I was required to commit myself to personally covering their social security checks if they divorced me before they made, iirc the exact number was 40, enough payments into social security.

Somehow companies aren’t required to have that level of skin in the game

Re: Corporations are trying to hide job openings from US citizens

#364

Post by WillPostForFood »

thephyber wrote: post #306
Taek wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a fair way for the free market to address things, no? If you need special carve outs, create a new type of Visa for those special cases. The immigrants are all going to be paying taxes on their earnings. If you can boost H1B salaries by an average of $20k/yr by doing a price auction, that brings govt revenue and maybe even gives opportunities to balance the budget by creating more H1B slots.

What do you mean “fair”? What happens in the years/decades between when this hypothetical system is enacted and when the US can train up sufficient workers to substitute the labor force we currently have with H1-B? Your proposal will mean 99% of all of the H1-B allocation will go to hedge fund quants and 1% maybe go to an AI researcher, but all of the materials science (eg. Cutting edge battery tech), semiconductor f…

"materials science (eg. Cutting edge battery tech), semiconductor fabrication, neuroscience, pharmaceutical research "

This is a beautiful fantasy for H-1B, that is totally disconnected from reality. What is that 1% of the H-1Bs currently? It is mostly IT and software slop jobs.

Here are the top 40 employers, it isn't going to hurt research in the US to cut them to zero.

Amazon.Com Services

Cognizant Technology Solutions

Ernst & Young

Tata Consultancy Services

Google

Microsoft

Infosys

Meta Platforms

Intel

Hcl America

Amazon Web Services

IBM

Jpmorgan Chase

Walmart

Apple

Accenture

Capgemini

Ltimindtree

Deloitte Consulting

Salesforce

Qualcomm

Tesla

Amazon Development Center

Wipro

Fidelity Technology Group

Tech Mahindra

Compunnel Software Group

Deloitte Touche

Mphasis

Nvidia

Adobe

Bytedance

Goldman, Sachs

Cisco

Linkedin

Pricewaterhousecoopers Advisory Services

Paypal

Ebay

Servicenow

Visa USA

For non-slop jobs, give them a green card and fast track to citizenship. For an IT consultant, no thanks.

source: https://www.myvisajobs.com/reports/h1b/

Re: Corporations are trying to hide job openings from US citizens

#365

Post by AbrahamParangi »

thephyber wrote: post #306
Taek wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a fair way for the free market to address things, no? If you need special carve outs, create a new type of Visa for those special cases. The immigrants are all going to be paying taxes on their earnings. If you can boost H1B salaries by an average of $20k/yr by doing a price auction, that brings govt revenue and maybe even gives opportunities to balance the budget by creating more H1B slots.

What do you mean “fair”? What happens in the years/decades between when this hypothetical system is enacted and when the US can train up sufficient workers to substitute the labor force we currently have with H1-B? Your proposal will mean 99% of all of the H1-B allocation will go to hedge fund quants and 1% maybe go to an AI researcher, but all of the materials science (eg. Cutting edge battery tech), semiconductor f…

This is just an argument against allowing the market to set wages, which you could make if you wanted to but it is not a strong one.

Re: Corporations are trying to hide job openings from US citizens

#366

Post by bandrami »

itake wrote: post #273

Why is hiding the jobs necessary? I applied for one of these jobs years ago. The recruiter told, "I have no idea how you applied for this job, but its not available for you. let me have you interview a different, but similar, role." What was I supposed to do other than say, "ok! Send over the other job description."?

"You have just committed visa fraud and I am calling a labor lawyer"

Re: Corporations are trying to hide job openings from US citizens

#367

Post by int_19h »

franktankbank wrote: post #344
1024core wrote: post #202

A lot of these problems could be solved if H1-B's were given out in order of salary (I think there's such a proposal going around recently). And by that I mean: something like a Dutch auction. Give H1-Bs to the top 85K paying jobs (maybe normalized to SoL in the region, I'm sure the BLS has some idea on how to do it). The lure of H1-Bs is the money savings, and the fact that if you're on an H1-B, you're practically a…

Visas coming from India are semi-non-consensual and kickback heavy, I'm not sure the incentives work out the way you expect. Fuck H-1B into the ground and fuck green cards while we're at it.

What is the problem with green cards?

Re: Corporations are trying to hide job openings from US citizens

#368

Post by pandaman »

lovich wrote: post #363
pandaman wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Would my point B not limit that fraudulent behavior as now the brought in migrant would be free to compete for a better position with higher pay and/or better benefits to the detriment of the company that paid an entry fee? I don't see how. As I understood, you mean that you want H-1Bs to be able to change jobs, not to hang in the country unemployed? It is already so. Of course, H-1Bs are not the only way foreign la…

> As I understood, you mean that you want H-1Bs to be able to change jobs, not to hang in the country unemployed? No explicitly not that. I want whoever sponsors and h1b or the equivalent in my fantasy world here to pay for the cost to society up front and then for that h1b person to have the same freedom as a citizen. My thinking behind that is that if a company is saying we can not find a single citizen who can fil…

>No explicitly not that. I want whoever sponsors and h1b or the equivalent in my fantasy world here to pay for the cost to society up front and then for that h1b person to have the same freedom as a citizen.

That would be too much - an alien having all the privileges of a citizen but no obligations is above a mere citizen. If you want to become a citizen there is an employment-based immigration, if you don't - you are going to be restricted in any developed country because normal countries do not put foreigners above citizens.

>My thinking behind that is that if a company is saying we can not find a single citizen who can fill this role so we need to import one, then this makes it real.

Nothing like this happens with temporary visa workers. All that company claims in such a case is that they want to hire a foreigner and are going to pay no less than the minimum wage determined for the position. This system is based entirely on the temporary nature of the employment so there is not much scrutiny as the legal fiction here says that the foreigner is going to leave in 6 years tops.

Re: Corporations are trying to hide job openings from US citizens

#369

Post by lovich »

pandaman wrote: post #368
lovich wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I understood, you mean that you want H-1Bs to be able to change jobs, not to hang in the country unemployed? No explicitly not that. I want whoever sponsors and h1b or the equivalent in my fantasy world here to pay for the cost to society up front and then for that h1b person to have the same freedom as a citizen. My thinking behind that is that if a company is saying we can not find a single citizen who can fil…

>No explicitly not that. I want whoever sponsors and h1b or the equivalent in my fantasy world here to pay for the cost to society up front and then for that h1b person to have the same freedom as a citizen. That would be too much - an alien having all the privileges of a citizen but no obligations is above a mere citizen. If you want to become a citizen there is an employment-based immigration, if you don't - you ar…

> That would be too much - an alien having all the privileges of a citizen but no obligations is above a mere citizen. If you want to become a citizen there is an employment-based immigration, if you don't - you are going to be restricted in any developed country because normal countries do not put foreigners above citizens.

My point is that issuing h1bs are a service for corporations in the us, ostensibly under the reason that no one in the country is capable of the job.

I am saying that assuming that is true, and assuming that we value brain draining other countries of talent, then we allow for corporations to import workers, but they need to both pay for the cost of the worker and have no control over them afterwards.

I don’t know whether the cost to society that would cover importing a worker is 10 dollars or 10 billion, but whatever is decided on as the amount I am suggesting is paid up front.

Assuming the corporation paying for the import is correct that the immigrant has a unique skill, then we would want them to be generally available to our labor market instead of tied to a single company.

That is my reasoning at least. Again poke holes in this but I do want a system that prioritizes improvements to my society or people in my society. If the benefits for whatever we end up in are centralized primarily in any single private actor, single human or organization, then I am probably against that plan

> Nothing like this happens with temporary visa workers. All that company claims in such a case is that they want to hire a foreigner and are going to pay no less than the minimum wage determined for the position. This system is based entirely on the temporary nature of the employment so there is not much scrutiny as the legal fiction here says that the foreigner is going to leave in 6 years tops.

I don’t know how to respond to this section. I am either missing some part of the h1b visa rules or we are talking about different things. What you described to me sounds like an agricultural visa or an au pair like J2 visa

Re: Corporations are trying to hide job openings from US citizens

#370

Post by chneu »

gradientsrneat wrote: post #327
esbranson wrote: post #288

See for example a recent lawsuit accusing Tesla of running a systemic, ongoing scheme to replace or exclude US citizens in favor of H-1B visa employees.[1][2] > Tesla prefers to hire these candidates [H-1B workers] over U.S. citizens, as it can pay visa-dependent employees less than American employees performing the same work, a practice in the industry known as “wage theft.” > At the same time Tesla applied for thes…

FYI to anyone reading this, this is not what wage theft means. Wage theft is an employer not paying wages they owe to an employee.

Yup and it's also worth mentioning that wage theft is the largest source of theft in the United States. Employers steal more wages from employees than shoplifting or basically any other form of theft, combined. Wage theft makes up 4x more theft than the next largest, which is larceny.

Americans are waaaay too corporation friendly.

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