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NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

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Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#361

Post by davrosthedalek »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #180
apwell23 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

relocate for 250k?

This. Someone like this could maybe come up here to Canada, and enjoy slightly a more sane political/cultural climate, but they won't be getting this kind of funding. Academics here are already barely holding on, and even in the best of times there has never been the kind of flow of cash available in the US for scientists and intellectuals. I imagine a similar story applies to the UK and other places in the Anglosphe…

Unfortunately, very true. I think Canada ranks last in the G7 on GDP-percentage science funding. Salaries seem to be OKish, maybe similar to Germany, but cost of living (mainly housing, food is comparable cheap) in Vancouver and Toronto is very high.

UK salaries are atrociously bad. Not sure about funding, but it doesn't seem to be great.

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#362

Post by hackyhacky »

davrosthedalek wrote: post #360
lupusreal wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

State schools like UCLA cannot restrict speech in the same way that private organizations could, because they are part of the government. The cinema analogy is therefore spurious.

Honest question on this: It is clear that first amendment protects the rights of protesters from persecution by the government. But does that mean that the government would need to endure protests in any federal building at any time? If not, I think you could make a case that UCLA could kick protesters out, for example if they take over a building. In contrast to a private university, they probably couldn't act on wh…

> But does that mean that the government would need to endure protests in any federal building at any time?

No. It means that the university cannot censor protests based on their content. They can certainly require protesters to get a permit, to stay within certain areas, to act within usual behavior parameters.

> If not, I think you could make a case that UCLA could kick protesters out, for example if they take over a building.

Of course. But that's not the claim made by the administration.

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#363

Post by lcnPylGDnU4H9OF »

throwaway290 wrote: post #345
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was downvoted for asking a question and this did not answer it. I am 100% sure your comment was downvoted for this sentence: > I'm not in the US but I heard pretty interesting things about what was happening in universities following Oct 7. People here don’t like propaganda-fueled speculation. The commenter also literally answered your question. You asked if it was meant to be implied as false and they said yes.

I was not reading propaganda and he did not answer the question. I will make it shorter to make it very clear. The question: "hostile environment for students?" the answer: "free speech, cudgel, fealty". I get it and I agree wit all of that. But it is answer to some other question that was more convenient to the "answerer"

> I was not reading propaganda

I don’t doubt this but it’s also easy to read the comment as though that’s where your thoughts originate.

> But it is answer to some other question that was more convenient to the "answerer"

I disagree on the question being unanswered, however; you did not ask for details but instead for confirmation.

I am saying this with the intention to be helpful; I am not intending to criticize your arguments. My point is simply that you did not communicate your thoughts as effectively as you seem to believe.

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#364

Post by ysofunny »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #25
ysofunny wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the god of israelites is merely (trying to) reassert dominance because we have invented universal translators, so all humans can talk to all humans. like in the myth of the Tower of Babel, this pisses of god Israel so they're throwing a huge tantrum

Tower of Babel: The Limits of Human Unity and Ambition

The State of Israel: Victims of collective abuse proceed to collectively deliver the abuse they received

the self-perpetuating orphan state, where each orphan is a tragedy and more than that, it's a derelict form of parenting which made sense in the dessert more than 3k years ago

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#365

Post by ModernMech »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #331
ModernMech wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many paths to college, and they require neither membership in nor adherence to ideals professed by the Democratic party. College campuses across America have people from every demographic axis - every race, religion, ethnicity, country, socioeconomic status, etc. Amongst them frequently are conservatives and white men. This is because the gate universities keep is based on merit , not ideology. Indeed, many…

This is because the gate universities keep is based on merit, not ideology. Many US universities have required prospective employees to demonstrate their adherence to preferred ideological stances, during processes for hiring and promotion. This is widely documented: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/fire-statement-use-di... I have read information about these mandatory statements on official web sites of univer…

> Many US universities have required prospective employees to demonstrate their adherence to preferred ideological stances, during processes for hiring and promotion

That does not mean the Democrats control hiring decisions at universities. This would be like saying the Republican party controls CFO hiring decisions because corporations might filter for people who are fiscally conservative.

All organizations look for "culture fit" when making hiring decisions, and the culture of a university is one that is typically open and accepting of people from all walks of life. It's counterproductive to hire who think "empathy is a fundamental weakness" for example. They don't fit well with fostering a welcoming educational environment for young people, so typically we look for some degree of empathy in candidates, people who want to build community, foster individuals, and yes, who value diversity.

Notably, this filter is not very good at preventing conservatives from being hired and promoted and admitted to universities, because that happens every day.

> but also discriminated against some individual students due to their race.

This thread is about Democrats ostensibly controlling schools. That some schools were found by a court to racially discriminate in their admitting practices is unrelated, nor does not show affiliation to the Democratic party was used as a filter for hiring or admit decisions.

> a conservative white man filed a complaint against Cornell.

Well, no. From the link you provided:

  I’m an evolutionary biologist, a liberal
Anyway, diversity statements were never about being a political litmus test. Diverse hiring pools are not a white filter. These are just something butthurt people say when they get an outcome they don't like. This seems more a case of a failed scientist being rejected for a tenure track role and blaming discrimination instead of his middling research agenda.

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#366

Post by throwaway290 »

kevinventullo wrote: post #355
throwaway290 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice strawman. So how about the actual question which is hostile environment for students? I was downvoted for asking a question and this did not answer it. Edit to reply: what I remember reading was not about saying "end genocide", it was about saying "you are a jew so go die" kind of stuff. It seemed pretty crazy but I didn't save any sources

If you’re genuinely interested in truth, I can tell you that I personally visited the protest site at UCLA in order to get an unfiltered view or what was happening. The signage I saw was largely of the form “End Genocide” or “Divest”. There were also signs criticizing e.g. the border wall with Mexico. A lot of it was critical of Israel, as well as the United States and even the University of California, but none of i…

Thanks for data point. So if this is what they take away grants for then yeah it's not a good look...

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#367

Post by rahimnathwani »

ModernMech wrote: post #365
rahimnathwani wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is because the gate universities keep is based on merit, not ideology. Many US universities have required prospective employees to demonstrate their adherence to preferred ideological stances, during processes for hiring and promotion. This is widely documented: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/fire-statement-use-di... I have read information about these mandatory statements on official web sites of univer…

> Many US universities have required prospective employees to demonstrate their adherence to preferred ideological stances, during processes for hiring and promotion That does not mean the Democrats control hiring decisions at universities. This would be like saying the Republican party controls CFO hiring decisions because corporations might filter for people who are fiscally conservative. All organizations look for…

You said this in an earlier comment:

  There are many paths to college, and they require neither membership in nor adherence to ideals professed by the Democratic party.
I have examples to show why I believe that to be incorrect.

I'm not saying that people have had to show adherence to (or loyalty to) the Democratic Party. But they have had to show support for positions and ideologies that are part of the Democratic Party's platform.

In your last paragraph, you dismiss Colin's complaint, without acknowledging the wrongness of the process that I outlined. Instead of seeking the best person for the job, the school made a list of people using race as one of the filtering criteria, and went down the last until someone accepted the job.

The fact you didn't engage with the major point I made here suggests you're more interested in winning an argument, than in furthering your or my understanding of the truth.

I am not interested in trying to win an argument. Your replies are not helping me to develop my thinking. So this will be my last reply.

Have a great day!

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#368

Post by cmrdporcupine »

pklausler wrote: post #258
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why people keep painting this conjuncture as some sort of aberration in American history. Intolerance and domination of religion and conservative ideological positions over the state and public sphere is actually the norm, not the exception, if you look back on the 20th century history. From the 60s through the 90s is the exception, really. For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bertrand_Russell_…

One of my earliest memories was staying up late on a Sunday night to see Neil and Buzz on the moon. Now, in the same country that could once put them there, I have to defend that it even happened. Basic health measures like pasteurization and vaccination are under direct attack. It's been a long shitty decline into madness, and it's just accelerating.

You and I both grew up during times when it was acceptable to persecute homosexuals, hit your kids in public and private, and it was "controversial" for women to take jobs other than bank tellers or airline stewardesses.

And we filled our gas tanks with leaded gas and people smoked in windowless restaurants.

While I'm not happy how the world is going right now, it's also important to take stock of where we've been.

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#369

Post by ModernMech »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #367
ModernMech wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many US universities have required prospective employees to demonstrate their adherence to preferred ideological stances, during processes for hiring and promotion That does not mean the Democrats control hiring decisions at universities. This would be like saying the Republican party controls CFO hiring decisions because corporations might filter for people who are fiscally conservative. All organizations look for…

You said this in an earlier comment: There are many paths to college, and they require neither membership in nor adherence to ideals professed by the Democratic party. I have examples to show why I believe that to be incorrect. I'm not saying that people have had to show adherence to (or loyalty to) the Democratic Party. But they have had to show support for positions and ideologies that are part of the Democratic Pa…

> But they have had to show support for positions and ideologies that are part of the Democratic Party's platform.

Even if we just agree that's what's happening here, the overlap of ideology doesn't imply control over the institution or process by the party, because you haven't shown any causality. What's to say university policy isn't influencing the Democratic party's platform?

Anyway, that's not what's happening. People qualified for these positions have no problem answering those questions and getting accepted to these institutions despite any conservative political leanings.

The evidence for this is that conservatives are well represented on campuses across America. They're not a ideological filter placed there by the Democratic party to keep conservatives out of college. They're a tool that colleges came up with on their own to help with culture fit.

> In your last paragraph, you dismiss Colin's complaint, without acknowledging the wrongness of the process that I outlined.

Because you're both misrepresented what's going on. He's doing it because he's upset they didn't hire him. Your opinion is on the basis of what he said, so I don't know what else to add except to wait for the verdict. Either way he's wasn't rejected on the basis of his conservative beliefs.

> Have a great day!

Same.

Re: NSF has suspended Terry Tao's grant

#370

Post by retinaros »

ModernMech wrote: post #365
rahimnathwani wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is because the gate universities keep is based on merit, not ideology. Many US universities have required prospective employees to demonstrate their adherence to preferred ideological stances, during processes for hiring and promotion. This is widely documented: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/fire-statement-use-di... I have read information about these mandatory statements on official web sites of univer…

> Many US universities have required prospective employees to demonstrate their adherence to preferred ideological stances, during processes for hiring and promotion That does not mean the Democrats control hiring decisions at universities. This would be like saying the Republican party controls CFO hiring decisions because corporations might filter for people who are fiscally conservative. All organizations look for…

> Anyway, diversity statements were never about being a political litmus test. Diverse hiring pools are not a white filter. These are just something butthurt people say when they get an outcome they don't like. This seems more a case of a failed scientist being rejected for a tenure track role and blaming discrimination instead of his middling research agenda.

hence why Asian community sued multiple universities for discrimination.

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