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Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#361

Post by simondotau »

quitit wrote: post #251
simondotau wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The open web requires browser diversity in order to remain healthy, far more than it needs individuals to have browser choice. The former is important for the health of open standards; the latter only matters if you believe the web is whatever Google implements in Chrome. Without healthy browser diversity, the web might as well be renamed the Chrome Protocol and the "browser choice" you care about so much is gone.

Android already has all of the things being demanded of Apple and there is no dawn of a new age. No demand for web apps. No demand for alternative browser engines. All that's there is the Chrome desert with a near-total market share and a sprinkling of alternative app stores that few trust or use. It's a form of regulatory capture, coopting legislation to rid the market of remaining competition.

Again, that's an argument for browser choice. What matters to me is browser diversity, even if it must come at the expense of browser choice. Apple forcing the use of WebKit on iOS is the last meaningful backstop against a Chrome monoculture.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#362

Post by extraduder_ire »

TheDong wrote: post #4

I agree with the point about non-EU web developers. As long as people in the US can't test their web app on "firefox for iOS" without first buying a plane ticket to the EU and getting an EU sim card, all eu-only browser engines on iOS will be second-class citizens. I think the next logical extension is that actually limiting general public use across the entire world makes apple less compliant with the DMA. Mozilla w…

Apparently, a faraday bag and an ESP32 is all that's needed to make an iOS device think it's in the EU.

I saw it posted on hn before. Apparently, you emulate some wifi APs that are geolocated to inside the EU and that's enough.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#364

Post by tristan957 »

pmkary wrote: post #93

I wonder why they should make iOS specific engines. To be honest only two things come to my mind: Shortcuts Integration and WebExtensions. Currently Orion is trying to bring extensions but I think there is a lot to be done for that to be considered operational and if that proves to work, then only remains Shortcuts which only lets you inject JS, or say get the content of a page from a "Safari" web page (while I think…

GNOME Web is just chrome around WebKit.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#365

Post by c22 »

stavros wrote: post #53
jeroenhd wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can run Gnome Web for free. It's the open source version of WebKit so you won't be able to see all the tweaks Apple adds to their proprietary build, but it's close enough that obvious differences are visible, at least on desktop. Safari on iOS cannot be tested without paying Apple so I generally don't for my personal stuff either. All of that said, American developers often can't even be bothered to support chara…

Right, but approximately zero people have ever said "this website doesn't work on Firefox, so I won't use this website". They say "this website doesn't work on Firefox, so I won't use Firefox".

It's almost every day I encounter a website that I choose not to use or choose to use in a degraded form because the intended experience would require me to install or configure my user agent in a way I do not desire.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#366

Post by giingyui »

c22 wrote: post #365
stavros wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but approximately zero people have ever said "this website doesn't work on Firefox, so I won't use this website". They say "this website doesn't work on Firefox, so I won't use Firefox".

It's almost every day I encounter a website that I choose not to use or choose to use in a degraded form because the intended experience would require me to install or configure my user agent in a way I do not desire.

That’s very different from the website not working on the default settings of Firefox, which is what most users are expected to be running.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#367

Post by ahju »

poisonborz wrote: post #306
swat535 wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the biggeest issue that techies on HN don't understand. These tech giants are essentially extensions of the United State's government now and fining them or imposing restrictions isn't as simple as fining any corporation due to the geopolitics at play. The long term solution is for EU to decouple its reliance on American technology. Anything else is a bandaid IMO.

The problem is not the technical reliance, EU is relying on the US, full stop. This isn't a question of making a new EU cloud hosting provider (already hard). This turn of events was completely unexpected and decades of strategizing crumbled.

[dead]

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#368

Post by amelius »

beeflet wrote: post #344
amelius wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have to put more power in the hands of one organization that fights for our rights. Consider adding this to your website: This link does not exist right now, but it will allow EFF to take control when necessary. E.g. by nudging people away from Chrome if it becomes too powerful.

chrome could just block the script if they try this

Of course if a browser does not faithfully execute the code that it is given, that will be a next level of anti-user behavior and might cause an uproar that will make people walk away even faster.

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#369

Post by croemer »

v5v3 wrote: post #190
Tepix wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Thank you! Someone has to do it, Apple is clearly dragging their feet as much as possible.

Just so you know, my post thanking you has 15 upvotes at present. So 16 people are thanking you together.

17 now - great questions (I watched the YouTube clip https://youtu.be/_nRU9XUbnpM?si=ep1pHNCfWmQKVf5b)

I feel you could be more aggressive in the questions given that no follow-up seems to be allowed. Apple's "were doing all of this for security" is clearly just a cheap excuse. You're given only one shot and are up against professional deflectors (lawyers).

The lawyer's "I'm not discrediting you for who you do or don't get money from like Spotify" is just cheap rhetoric 101. He prefers to chip "You think You know better how to design our OS" rather than answer the question on how non-EU devs can test. Empty "we're engaging with Google/Mozilla...". That's not an answer!

Re: Apple's Browser Engine Ban Persists, Even Under the DMA

#370

Post by croemer »

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #280

This browser engine ban is unique to Apple and no other gatekeeper imposes such a restriction. What other gatekeepers are relevant to the above? Is it just Google? DMA seems to be an EU thing, which I'm guessing makes Asia not relevant here.

Asian countries could just say "We piggyback on DMA and require you to comply with the same rules"
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